A New Beginning

[Don Bluth]

I would like to say a few words about the spirit of competition in the animation industry. I believe that competition is a good thing as long as it remains friendly. But for decades, animators and story men alike have battled amongst themselves in a fierce contest to determine who is the most talented and who gets the highest salary. Picture if you will, the beautiful queen standing before her magic mirror to inquire if she were the fairest in the land. Now, recall her reaction upon being told that her status had slipped to number two and that the young princess, ?Snow White? had bested her. The news was unacceptable to the jealous queen, and she set out to murder her contender ? murder! Now, I ask you, is that nice?

It is understandable that every artist deserves to be credited for his/her accomplishments either by his/her peers or by the public. It is difficult to say just when and where the sparks of this intense rivalry were ignited; certainly it is no secret that Walt used competition to pull the best work from his animators. But that gave rise to contention, and contention leads to jealousy, jealousy to anger, and eventually grudge holding. Some of the old timers in our industry have carried these grudges for years. Many would not even speak to one another, face to face.

Although many of that generation have now passed on to the feathered choir, the legacy of jealousy and artistic contention, I fear, still remains with the new generation of artists. We have become a community of gossips. ?There can be only one,? is a repugnant philosophy ? one which we could well do without. Animation, after all, is a collaborative effort, and rather than downgrade our peers, I wonder if it wouldn?t be a better idea to encourage them, speak well of them and praise them for their creativity. Why not compete with yourself? Make your work better today than it was yesterday. That?s a more positive approach. When one finds him/her self consumed with jealousy and resentment, the spirit of creativity goes out the window. Enough said on that front. Now, you may be asking, why I brought all this up? Let me explain.

I think if there is to be a renaissance of classical animation it will come from the private sector. Three elements must be lined up for success:

1) The production money, which will be high-risk capital.
2) The production script, which will need more edge than the usual bill of fare.
3) The distribution and marketing campaign will need to be innovative.

We will not be able to count on any of the studios for numbers 1 & 2. CG is currently making money so which of the studios would tamper with that kind of success? Additionally, Disney has a franchise to protect; it has to produce the same old stuff to please moms and children all over the world. If they deviate from that formula they might lose both their customers and their stockholders. The theme parks are built on pleasing both. If Disney had a choice, I?m sure they would prefer the teen audience; that?s a higher priced ticket. But teens have outgrown the ?formula.? This is the dilemma for traditional 2D animation.

There have been a few moments in Disney?s history when the studio considered throwing in the towel on its 2D animation department. One was after the exorbitant costs of producing Sleeping Beauty. The second was after the release of The Black Cauldron. The third was the sudden rise of CG animated films and their financial success.

So, here?s my point! You, my friends are the private sector. You could join hands and produce your own product, even if it were only a 15 minute spot for TV; it would be a start. Certainly, the current technology makes this possible. What we are facing is proving to the financial community that a classical 2D film has perpetuity, that it can make money, even on its first release. We have to prove this with more than mere words. This challenge is not for the faint of heart; it may take sacrifice. Maybe it will happen in your garage. Waiting for any corporation to make your dreams come true is a poor investment of your time.

[jeremyfries]

Wow! What an outstanding topic! The last sentence should be in bold type, in my opinion!

Well, I'm certainly interested in joining with others to produce our own product...

[johncbeggs]

Well I definitely agree with Don on this subject!
-"Count me in"

We all have to work together!

[zanekohler]

Fantastic words of encouragement! Let's pick up the flag and run!

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

An explanation you would hear from a psychologist (I guess):

I believe if certain actions inevitably lead to negative consequences, the actions themselves are wrong. We must understand that and try to figure out what's wrong our actions. Solve for X.

Apply that rule to ANY sphere of life and it will work. Animation counts as well.

The question is not "why animators compete THAT much?", but "what is wrong with THEM that makes them so hostile?". All of us who are animators ned to stop and think: "What is wrong with ME? Why can't I be nice?". Once you found the reason and remove it... you'll be nice :)


Hope my opinion is not TOO weird.

[johncbeggs]

I dont think Dons talking about who we are, but what we can achieve with a bit of talent and lots of teamwork!

[jeremyhopkins]

The question is not "why animators compete THAT much?", but "what is wrong with THEM that makes them so hostile?". All of us who are animators ned to stop and think: "What is wrong with ME? Why can't I be nice?". Once you found the reason and remove it... you'll be nice

I think the answer to this is scarcity. When resources, jobs, money, free time, praise, success, are plentiful, then people tend to be more civil. When even one of these aspects are missing, people complain. People who don't share or open up cause a great deal of problems in a studio.

One of the greatest rewards I've had in my career so far isn't necessarily from the projects I've worked on but it was seeing one my friends become assistant director on Jimmy Two Shoes. It's rewarding because he started off in school with no experience and no knowledge of the industry. He would borrow my sketchbook and copy my characters to try and improve. He kept improving until he surpassed me, found other inspirations and is becoming a top person in the Canadian tv industry. I'm so happy for him and that I played a small part in his success. For others who hold on to greed or worries about being replaced, I speak from experience that it's so much better to let go and help build others up.

We have some solutions that help producing independent work like kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com) or the ability to develop mobile phone applications (http://seattleclouds.com/) that specialize in short films. There are sites like lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com/) and createspace.com (https://www.createspace.com/) that help with production. We are so lucky today with the available opportunities but what remains difficult is creating something that is special for another person.

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

I think the answer to this is scarcity. When resources, jobs, money, free time, praise, success, are plentiful, then people tend to be more civil. When even one of these aspects are missing, people complain. People who don't share or open up cause a great deal of problems in a studio.

One of the greatest rewards I've had in my career so far isn't necessarily from the projects I've worked on but it was seeing one my friends become assistant director on Jimmy Two Shoes. It's rewarding because he started off in school with no experience and no knowledge of the industry. He would borrow my sketchbook and copy my characters to try and improve. He kept improving until he surpassed me, found other inspirations and is becoming a top person in the Canadian tv industry. I'm so happy for him and that I played a small part in his success. For others who hold on to greed or worries about being replaced, I speak from experience that it's so much better to let go and help build others up.

We have some solutions that help producing independent work like kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com) or the ability to develop mobile phone applications (http://seattleclouds.com/) that specialize in short films. There are sites like lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com/) and createspace.com (https://www.createspace.com/) that help with production. We are so lucky today with the available opportunities but what remains difficult is creating something that is special for another person.

What I was trying to say was... get rid of inner demons and you will be a nicer person, in animation or anywhere.

[OwenWelsh]

Don, thanks for bringing this up. You have presented quite a challenge.
If we can find a good script or story that inspires us all the hardest part will be building and keeping the team together.

If the stars are to align we must find a group of people who can:

1. Work well together
Respect each other and help each other

2. Follow a director
This may be one of the hardest things to do. To follow a director means we must trust and respect them. We must set aside our own egos and believe in their "vision" and try to match it or exceed it. One voice, one vision. Director doesn't mean dictatorship, but too many cooks in the kitchen will create a messy kitchen.

3. Relocate
The power of the internet is incredible. But I think a few people need to be local to work out the big ideas and organize the thousands of pieces needed to create an animated film.

4. Stay motivated
It will be difficult to stay motivated and loyal to something that has no reward at first. I suppose this will weed out the lazy eggs.

Now I wonder if there's any of you artists out there crazy enough to do this? :) I know I am.

[arif]

Don, thanks for bringing this up. You have presented quite a challenge.
If we can find a good script or story that inspires us all the hardest part will be building and keeping the team together.

If the stars are to align we must find a group of people who can:

1. Work well together
Respect each other and help each other

2. Follow a director
This may be one of the hardest things to do. To follow a director means we must trust and respect them. We must set aside our own egos and believe in their "vision" and try to match it or exceed it. One voice, one vision. Director doesn't mean dictatorship, but too many cooks in the kitchen will create a messy kitchen.

3. Relocate
The power of the internet is incredible. But I think a few people need to be local to work out the big ideas and organize the thousands of pieces needed to create an animated film.

4. Stay motivated
It will be difficult to stay motivated and loyal to something that has no reward at first. I suppose this will weed out the lazy eggs.

Now I wonder if there's any of you artists out there crazy enough to do this? :) I know I am.

So inspiring speech by Don...........

and yes, Owen, you can count on me

[lavallelee]

How about everyone relocate to Orlando, with Spiralfx and I

We can make something great! lol

[jeremyfries]

Don, thanks for bringing this up. You have presented quite a challenge.
If we can find a good script or story that inspires us all the hardest part will be building and keeping the team together.

If the stars are to align we must find a group of people who can:

1. Work well together
Respect each other and help each other

2. Follow a director
This may be one of the hardest things to do. To follow a director means we must trust and respect them. We must set aside our own egos and believe in their "vision" and try to match it or exceed it. One voice, one vision. Director doesn't mean dictatorship, but too many cooks in the kitchen will create a messy kitchen.

3. Relocate
The power of the internet is incredible. But I think a few people need to be local to work out the big ideas and organize the thousands of pieces needed to create an animated film.

4. Stay motivated
It will be difficult to stay motivated and loyal to something that has no reward at first. I suppose this will weed out the lazy eggs.

Now I wonder if there's any of you artists out there crazy enough to do this? :) I know I am.

Hi Owen, you make some great points. The first point is a given (I hope). As to the other points, I'd like to provide an example, if I may:

I worked with some people on a 3D animated short that made use of animators all over the globe. The director and producer were graduate students in London, and they would assign shots to all of the animators according to the animator's skill level and time availability. They sent out the storyboards and animatics so the animators knew what the context was, and then the animators uploaded the animated scene to their FTP server. The director and producer provided comments to improve the animation, and the animators could provide suggestions to improve the action, etc. but the decisions ultimately rested with the director and producer. (All of this is probably very close to the Cyber Garage Project.)

The reason I mention this is that
- I believe it IS possible for a large group of people to follow the vision of a director (even if that director is a fellow student);
- it isn't necessary to relocate, especially if everyone has a fast enough internet connection to support Skype, for example;
- and it is possible to stay motivated over the long term, although this could rest primarily with the director and producer, since animators would be able to come and go during the course of the project.

I'm currently working on storyboards for a personal project, and I would love to work on it with other people. I would also love to work on other people's personal projects.

Am I crazy enough to do it? YOU BET!!!

P.S. I have had a lot of luck using Dropbox (http://www.dropbox.com) for remote working, because it automatically updates all files on everyone's computer simultaneously. Very handy!

[zanekohler]

After doing Animation Mentor I do believe that a project can be done remotely. Does not mean it wont have it's fair share of issues to work through. It certainly is going to require clear direction and commitment. Without those two things it will fail. The internet offers a lot of tools to help connect people. It is just getting our mental attitudes to take this venue seriously and learn to use them properly. Already I have been very impressed watching the CGP and other various competitions come to life. Seeing that gets me excited for what possibilities lay ahead.

[jeremyhopkins]

This is a little off topic but seeing the trailer of the Illusionist is just stunning (http://www.afisha.ru/movie/trailer/192512/) and a really great example of independent work being done outside mainstream media.

[johncbeggs]

Were all with you Don!

But first we all have to create a certain style of characters that are different and unique in design!

What kind of stories are people interested in , reality or fantasy?

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

Were all with you Don!

But first we all have to create a certain style of characters that are different and unique in design!

What kind of stories are people interested in , reality or fantasy?

Both. The Illusionist and The Secret of Kells showed us that.

[madanimator]

Thanks Don, that was pure motivation! We will make the return of classical animation possible, you can count on us! :D

[Gabriel-Carson]

I would like to say a few words about the spirit of competition in the animation industry. I believe that competition is a good thing as long as it remains friendly. But for decades, animators and story men alike have battled amongst themselves in a fierce contest to determine who is the most talented and who gets the highest salary. Picture if you will, the beautiful queen standing before her magic mirror to inquire if she were the fairest in the land. Now, recall her reaction upon being told that her status had slipped to number two and that the young princess, “Snow White” had bested her. The news was unacceptable to the jealous queen, and she set out to murder her contender – murder! Now, I ask you, is that nice?

It is understandable that every artist deserves to be credited for his/her accomplishments either by his/her peers or by the public. It is difficult to say just when and where the sparks of this intense rivalry were ignited; certainly it is no secret that Walt used competition to pull the best work from his animators. But that gave rise to contention, and contention leads to jealousy, jealousy to anger, and eventually grudge holding. Some of the old timers in our industry have carried these grudges for years. Many would not even speak to one another, face to face.

Although many of that generation have now passed on to the feathered choir, the legacy of jealousy and artistic contention, I fear, still remains with the new generation of artists. We have become a community of gossips. “There can be only one,” is a repugnant philosophy – one which we could well do without. Animation, after all, is a collaborative effort, and rather than downgrade our peers, I wonder if it wouldn’t be a better idea to encourage them, speak well of them and praise them for their creativity. Why not compete with yourself? Make your work better today than it was yesterday. That’s a more positive approach. When one finds him/her self consumed with jealousy and resentment, the spirit of creativity goes out the window. Enough said on that front. Now, you may be asking, why I brought all this up? Let me explain.

I think if there is to be a renaissance of classical animation it will come from the private sector. Three elements must be lined up for success:

1) The production money, which will be high-risk capital.
2) The production script, which will need more edge than the usual bill of fare.
3) The distribution and marketing campaign will need to be innovative.

We will not be able to count on any of the studios for numbers 1 & 2. CG is currently making money so which of the studios would tamper with that kind of success? Additionally, Disney has a franchise to protect; it has to produce the same old stuff to please moms and children all over the world. If they deviate from that formula they might lose both their customers and their stockholders. The theme parks are built on pleasing both. If Disney had a choice, I’m sure they would prefer the teen audience; that’s a higher priced ticket. But teens have outgrown the “formula.” This is the dilemma for traditional 2D animation.

There have been a few moments in Disney’s history when the studio considered throwing in the towel on its 2D animation department. One was after the exorbitant costs of producing Sleeping Beauty. The second was after the release of The Black Cauldron. The third was the sudden rise of CG animated films and their financial success.

So, here’s my point! You, my friends are the private sector. You could join hands and produce your own product, even if it were only a 15 minute spot for TV; it would be a start. Certainly, the current technology makes this possible. What we are facing is proving to the financial community that a classical 2D film has perpetuity, that it can make money, even on its first release. We have to prove this with more than mere words. This challenge is not for the faint of heart; it may take sacrifice. Maybe it will happen in your garage. Waiting for any corporation to make your dreams come true is a poor investment of your time.

Don this is inspiring. About a month ago at the end of seminar I mentioned that us Don's club members should join up and make a short togther. the census was after we particapate in your online workshop we would start and change the animation world haha... I don't think any thing will change untill we follow Don's example and start doing it and changing what we dislike about this industry.

one thing that I find we should be aware of is when people try this they either copy old bland rehash or they make some thing they call adult almost x rated crap. Neither are any good. we need ballance. It is my opinion animation is not just for kids or not just for adults but every one. Now why is comic books and comic book movies so popular? They speak to us all. Stan Lee said he felt the reason spider man is so popular is because he wears a mask and the reader/viewer no matter what color was spider man vicariously. Comic books are also edgy. I could right all day on the fun subject of story but lets look at lucas and the first star wars movie. Lucas was/is a student of Joseph cambell who studied all the worlds religions and showed their comparisons. Lucas took these strands and made a movie that no one took serious, even most of his staff. There has been good arguements that the matrix was also written 2000 years ago. Now I am not saying we should pick a myth and copy but these strands speak loudly. My point is they thought star wars would sink and they think 2d is dead. There is hope... Let's do a short that shows what makes 2d strong and can not be done in cg or live action in the hopes of a feature. Lets speak to people...

One other thing in my limited experience the role of director needs to be clearly defined but the directer should be flexable and willing to listen.

Don I am very inspired. I would like to hear your thoughts on my post...

ok I'll shut up... haha

[jeremyfries]

Since Don posted this, I've been able to think about little else, and it occurred to me that we may have overlooked one point. That is, a lot of the "there can only be one" mentality is due to fear that people will steal ideas from each other.

I'm not talking about competition between studios necessarily, although that could be part of it. What I mean is that individuals may be concerned that their ideas will be taken by someone else and they will not get the credit they deserve. Naturally, this would be very disheartening to the individuals involved.

Part of Owen's point about respecting and helping each other includes ensuring that credit goes to the right people for ideas and work that go into a film.

My industry experience is fairly limited, so I don't know how much of an issue this really is, but I'm just throwing my two cents into the mix....

[jeremyhopkins]

About a month ago at the end of seminar I mentioned that us Don's club members should join up and make a short togther.

We've tried this already and there were some parts that worked and some that didn't. I think the biggest problem was trying to get everyone up speed making great animation and to produce work at a reasonable pace. If I were going to offer one suggestion for next time, it would be to have an animation supervisor so Don wouldn't have to carry all the weight. I'm not trying to single anyone out but I would pick madanimator if she had the time to do her scenes and check everyone else.

Another option is get everyone to do their own 3-5 short film and put it together Pulp Fiction style. Some people have really unique styles but struggle to work under a single vision. Collecting six 5 minute short films and putting them together as a collection would be a perfect venue for their talent.


I've been able to think about little else, and it occurred to me that we may have overlooked one point. That is, a lot of the "there can only be one" mentality is due to fear that people will steal ideas from each other.

Yes, you're right and to a certain degree I understand the concern because people are worried not only about credit but about their livelihood as well. Though for animation to be successful, I think we have to put these fears aside because it's such a collaborative process. Richtoonz posted a good comment that showing artwork makes you feel vulnerable and that's so true. It's revealing and you can't hide a good or bad drawing or yourself from your peers. People are worried about having another take advantage of their good will but that's also part of the risk. I feel the easiest way to combat these feelings is with a sense of gratitude. Maybe that sounds naive but it's worked for me to stay positive and motivated in recent years.

[Gabriel-Carson]

Hi Jeremyfries and Jeremyhopins,

what I was reffering to with "the role of director needs to be clearly defined" is not do to theives. we need a leader to keep us
on track or the film not only will take to long to finish but will turn into a composit beast of half baked ideas.

I do trust Don's club members... I find them restpectful and I feel they will give proper credit. That being said the advice I was
give was don't pitch your "baby". what I perpose is if we are serious we should find a private space online to discuss and pitch
story concepts. second we vote on the story we all want to make. whom ever wrote the story should be director if able. if not they
should still be closly involved in the story process. we are all at different levels Just like a real studio. as you have pointed
out there is only a few of us that are up to speed animating, sadly I am not one. we would have to use every one for their strongest
skills.

Jeremyhopins this is an interesting Idea "Another option is get everyone to do their own 3-5 short film and put it together
Pulp Fiction style. Some people have really unique styles but struggle to work under a single vision. Collecting six 5 minute
short films and putting them together as a collection would be a perfect venue for their talent." In order to do this we still
need a story or atleast a concept to follow.

[Leo]

I would like to say a few words about the spirit of competition in the animation industry. I believe that competition is a good thing as long as it remains friendly. But for decades, animators and story men alike have battled amongst themselves in a fierce contest to determine who is the most talented and who gets the highest salary. Picture if you will, the beautiful queen standing before her magic mirror to inquire if she were the fairest in the land. Now, recall her reaction upon being told that her status had slipped to number two and that the young princess, ?Snow White? had bested her. The news was unacceptable to the jealous queen, and she set out to murder her contender ? murder! Now, I ask you, is that nice?

It is understandable that every artist deserves to be credited for his/her accomplishments either by his/her peers or by the public. It is difficult to say just when and where the sparks of this intense rivalry were ignited; certainly it is no secret that Walt used competition to pull the best work from his animators. But that gave rise to contention, and contention leads to jealousy, jealousy to anger, and eventually grudge holding. Some of the old timers in our industry have carried these grudges for years. Many would not even speak to one another, face to face.

Although many of that generation have now passed on to the feathered choir, the legacy of jealousy and artistic contention, I fear, still remains with the new generation of artists. We have become a community of gossips. ?There can be only one,? is a repugnant philosophy ? one which we could well do without. Animation, after all, is a collaborative effort, and rather than downgrade our peers, I wonder if it wouldn?t be a better idea to encourage them, speak well of them and praise them for their creativity. Why not compete with yourself? Make your work better today than it was yesterday. That?s a more positive approach. When one finds him/her self consumed with jealousy and resentment, the spirit of creativity goes out the window. Enough said on that front. Now, you may be asking, why I brought all this up? Let me explain.

I think if there is to be a renaissance of classical animation it will come from the private sector. Three elements must be lined up for success:

1) The production money, which will be high-risk capital.
2) The production script, which will need more edge than the usual bill of fare.
3) The distribution and marketing campaign will need to be innovative.

We will not be able to count on any of the studios for numbers 1 & 2. CG is currently making money so which of the studios would tamper with that kind of success? Additionally, Disney has a franchise to protect; it has to produce the same old stuff to please moms and children all over the world. If they deviate from that formula they might lose both their customers and their stockholders. The theme parks are built on pleasing both. If Disney had a choice, I?m sure they would prefer the teen audience; that?s a higher priced ticket. But teens have outgrown the ?formula.? This is the dilemma for traditional 2D animation.

There have been a few moments in Disney?s history when the studio considered throwing in the towel on its 2D animation department. One was after the exorbitant costs of producing Sleeping Beauty. The second was after the release of The Black Cauldron. The third was the sudden rise of CG animated films and their financial success.

So, here?s my point! You, my friends are the private sector. You could join hands and produce your own product, even if it were only a 15 minute spot for TV; it would be a start. Certainly, the current technology makes this possible. What we are facing is proving to the financial community that a classical 2D film has perpetuity, that it can make money, even on its first release. We have to prove this with more than mere words. This challenge is not for the faint of heart; it may take sacrifice. Maybe it will happen in your garage. Waiting for any corporation to make your dreams come true is a poor investment of your time.

I remeber your artwork on Disney animation like some examples on Sleeping Beauty or The rescuers. this last as one of my favorites.

An instant change ever story like The Secert of NIMH (The best animated movie by MGM)

I think The second secuence was good, becasue Timothy Brisby needs be trained for be a leader like Jonathan ( his father). But other people aren't .

My style was inspired on you. I'm just a beginner.

I think young people on this times is more than ready for the third secuence they must learn not only animals have feelings

but also that good and evil are born in the hearts and conduct of a character is evolving

Maybe I'm boring you, but I think this can be a teaching

Some examples on Rescuers Ranger the character named Gaddie (that nice girl mouse) found her antagonist named Lahwhinie.

Would a honor for me wath my own character made from you.

Thanks and its all now

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

I remeber your artwork on Disney animation like some examples on Sleeping Beauty or The rescuers. this last as one of my favorites.

An instant change ever story like The Secert of NIMH (The best animated movie by MGM)

I think The second secuence was good, becasue Timothy Brisby needs be trained for be a leader like Jonathan ( his father). But other people aren't .

My style was inspired on you. I'm just a beginner.

I think young people on this times is more than ready for the third secuence they must learn not only animals have feelings

but also that good and evil are born in the hearts and conduct of a character is evolving

Maybe I'm boring you, but I think this can be a teaching

Some examples on Rescuers Ranger the character named Gaddie (that nice girl mouse) found her antagonist named Lahwhinie.

Would a honor for me wath my own character made from you.

Thanks and its all now

Could you please explain your point?

[jeremyhopkins]

what I perpose is if we are serious we should find a private space online to discuss and pitch
story concepts. second we vote on the story we all want to make. whom ever wrote the story should be director if able. if not they
should still be closly involved in the story process.
We still have one unfinished film project on the forum and I'd love to see the Cyber Garage Project completed. I think there's a handful of dedicated people who want to finish it properly could do it and that sets the tone for all other projects. The project is past its due date so it would be up to the folks who want it done to edit and manage shots. If possible, I'd recommend Lizzle for her draughtsmanship and natural understanding of Don's character design and madanimator for her sense of appeal and entertainment in movement to be supervisors on the project. That way we get a more unified feel and it gives the opportunity for students coming straight out of high school to have supervisor credit on a short film which would be a great way to start an animation career.


we are all at different levels Just like a real studio. as you have pointed out there is only a few of us that are up to speed animating, sadly I am not one. we would have to use every one for their strongest
skills.
One way to solve this problem is with the training seminars that are being developed now. As an example, let's say level one is the bouncing ball and rather than just rushing through and missing all the concepts that are important for that exercise, maybe the student can do it as many times as needed before going on to level 2's flour sack. Sometimes schools have to move students along before they're ready because the teacher is dealing with a group. A better way is for an individual to work on the test until it's approved and with the video seminar, it's easy to get that feedback.

Then as students become more confident and start to consistently producing great tests, then the opportunity for developing better projects opens up. Ideally, I'd love to see both a collection of short films and longer collaborative projects.


Could you please explain your point?
Hope Leo doesn't mind me summing up his statements but basically he's excited to be having a discussion with Don. It skirts the edges of the topic but Leo is new here and there's an international audience so sometimes we have difficulty communicating clearly.

[arif]

One way to solve this problem is with the training seminars that are being developed now. As an example, let's say level one is the bouncing ball and rather than just rushing through and missing all the concepts that are important for that exercise, maybe the student can do it as many times as needed before going on to level 2's flour sack. Sometimes schools have to move students along before they're ready because the teacher is dealing with a group. A better way is for an individual to work on the test until it's approved and with the video seminar, it's easy to get that feedback.

Then as students become more confident and start to consistently producing great tests, then the opportunity for developing better projects opens up. Ideally, I'd love to see both a collection of short films and longer collaborative projects.





well said Jeremy........

i am going to echo with this motion

i am exactly thinking something like that......this club could be a 2d online animation school(already, it is like that)but, i need to see it like proper online school... .....we need to set up some prospectus for that..suppose,you said if the bouncing ball principal is the first lesson of animation, we should go for it exactly what Don showed us in the bouncing ball dvd tutorial...and we must attempt all the test like test 1, test 2 or something like that.....after finishing all the test then we would pass level one....and we must pass every test to go through next test......then, walk, run, jump, head turnaround,etc.........in this way, i will get a proper guideline to see myself in which stage i am here and what to attempt next...

and after passed all the levels , i could say that i have passed from Don bluth school.....and then i will go for with my own dreams with all the principal and arts what our MASTER taught us....and would make my own path.

our live seminar already shaped up like school now......when i see Don picks up pencil and shows us the fault of our work......

i can say my story, after joined this club,i started animation and participated CGP...Don showed me the way always....but, after finished my scene, i am confused what should i attempt next ....so, i remain always confused with my animation....

i am sorry, i am out of topic.....but, i like what Jeremy pointed out......

Regards,
Arif

[jeremyfries]

"We still have one unfinished film project on the forum and I'd love to see the Cyber Garage Project completed. I think there's a handful of dedicated people who want to finish it properly could do it and that sets the tone for all other projects. The project is past its due date so it would be up to the folks who want it done to edit and manage shots."

Jeremy, does this mean we can still participate in the CGP? I thought it was already closed??? Or did you mean that the people who participated should finish it? Besides, I thought the remaining shots in the film had been reserved for Don to animate for DVD tutorials?

[arif]

"We still have one unfinished film project on the forum and I'd love to see the Cyber Garage Project completed. I think there's a handful of dedicated people who want to finish it properly could do it and that sets the tone for all other projects. The project is past its due date so it would be up to the folks who want it done to edit and manage shots."

Jeremy, does this mean we can still participate in the CGP? I thought it was already closed??? Or did you mean that the people who participated should finish it? Besides, I thought the remaining shots in the film had been reserved for Don to animate for DVD tutorials?

yeah..i think, Don will animate 5 scenes out of the remaining....and after seeing Dons animation and his approaches with the animation...he will make a contest for one scene...and we will all participate for that....it would be a contest.....
hope, i didnot make any mistake from memorize what Don`s said one of the live seminar...

Thanks,
Arif

[jeremyhopkins]

Jeremy, does this mean we can still participate in the CGP? I thought it was already closed??? Or did you mean that the people who participated should finish it? Besides, I thought the remaining shots in the film had been reserved for Don to animate for DVD tutorials?

Yes it closed last year but the storyboards and animatic are still online.

[johncbeggs]

Well we could all post our stories and ideas on the members only section!
- Isn't Don still directing us?


we are all at different levels and Im working hard to advance mine but I really need someone to tell me straight up what Im supposed to be doing while I animate! - and Ive never really got that clear description yet!!!
- if I had 2mins just watching Don animate I would figure it out instantly but for those who have never seen an animator animate (which I have not) its pretty hard to mimic :laughing:



Another thing is that we are all at different levels, and yes we do have some awesome well trained animators here! but If the stories are the most important part of all! then that director should have the talent in "directing" and maybe we should not emphasize on the artwork of theirs considering most of us are new to this.

[joedorsey]

It saddens me to hear how much unhealthy competition between animators has endured over the years. I have so much respect for the old guard and many of the folks here who are skilled animators.

Finding the right story is where the real challenge begins. It gives us a goal and if it's a great tale...I'm sure we will rise to the task. I tried to put up a story idea post, but there is a fear of stealing which I understand. If we can find a safe place to exchange ideas. That would be a good start. :)

[madanimator]

- if I had 2mins just watching Don animate I would figure it out instantly but for those who have never seen an animator animate (which I have not) its pretty hard to mimic

Look at this: This is really helpful!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHbA6lG79Eo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCS_H7-5DwU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEhi6xaCDGs&feature=related

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCknAgHNeec
:)

[jeremyhopkins]

Another thing is that we are all at different levels, and yes we do have some awesome well trained animators here! but If the stories are the most important part of all! then that director should have the talent in "directing" and maybe we should not emphasize on the artwork of theirs considering most of us are new to this.

What I'm referring to is two supervising animators so a sequence has consistency. It's more of a Frank Thomas and Milt Kahl relationship. It's a stop gap so that work continues even if the director is busy. Final say is with the director but at least he doesn't have to sit and sort through some of the basic ideas that should be addressed to make the scene work. Having one supervisor who is an excellent entertainer and balancing that with someone who is an excellent artist is a great way to ensure engaging choices without sacrificing the quality of the drawing. Usually the supervisors are people who get the director's vision and can communicate it clearly to other artists. People who sign on for a project with Don as director would still have him guidance but the supervisors would act as extra support. Then maybe for an other project, the supervisors could switch and it'll give others a chance to help out. Bottom line, doesn't matter to me how it gets done but I'd really like to see the CGP finished.

[Rich-E]

please refer to post following.

[johncbeggs]

Look at this: This is really helpful!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHbA6lG79Eo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCS_H7-5DwU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEhi6xaCDGs&feature=related

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCknAgHNeec
:)


thank you Beatrice , I haven't seen any of those videos before they are for sure helping me. :D

[Rich-E]

I would like to say a few words about the spirit of competition in the animation industry. I believe that competition is a good thing as long as it remains friendly. But for decades, animators and story men alike have battled amongst themselves in a fierce contest to determine who is the most talented and who gets the highest salary. Picture if you will, the beautiful queen standing before her magic mirror to inquire if she were the fairest in the land. Now, recall her reaction upon being told that her status had slipped to number two and that the young princess, ?Snow White? had bested her. The news was unacceptable to the jealous queen, and she set out to murder her contender ? murder! Now, I ask you, is that nice?

It is understandable that every artist deserves to be credited for his/her accomplishments either by his/her peers or by the public. It is difficult to say just when and where the sparks of this intense rivalry were ignited; certainly it is no secret that Walt used competition to pull the best work from his animators. But that gave rise to contention, and contention leads to jealousy, jealousy to anger, and eventually grudge holding. Some of the old timers in our industry have carried these grudges for years. Many would not even speak to one another, face to face.

Although many of that generation have now passed on to the feathered choir, the legacy of jealousy and artistic contention, I fear, still remains with the new generation of artists. We have become a community of gossips. ?There can be only one,? is a repugnant philosophy ? one which we could well do without. Animation, after all, is a collaborative effort, and rather than downgrade our peers, I wonder if it wouldn?t be a better idea to encourage them, speak well of them and praise them for their creativity. Why not compete with yourself? Make your work better today than it was yesterday. That?s a more positive approach. When one finds him/her self consumed with jealousy and resentment, the spirit of creativity goes out the window. Enough said on that front. Now, you may be asking, why I brought all this up? Let me explain.

I think if there is to be a renaissance of classical animation it will come from the private sector. Three elements must be lined up for success:

1) The production money, which will be high-risk capital.
2) The production script, which will need more edge than the usual bill of fare.
3) The distribution and marketing campaign will need to be innovative.

We will not be able to count on any of the studios for numbers 1 & 2. CG is currently making money so which of the studios would tamper with that kind of success? Additionally, Disney has a franchise to protect; it has to produce the same old stuff to please moms and children all over the world. If they deviate from that formula they might lose both their customers and their stockholders. The theme parks are built on pleasing both. If Disney had a choice, I?m sure they would prefer the teen audience; that?s a higher priced ticket. But teens have outgrown the ?formula.? This is the dilemma for traditional 2D animation.

There have been a few moments in Disney?s history when the studio considered throwing in the towel on its 2D animation department. One was after the exorbitant costs of producing Sleeping Beauty. The second was after the release of The Black Cauldron. The third was the sudden rise of CG animated films and their financial success.

So, here?s my point! You, my friends are the private sector. You could join hands and produce your own product, even if it were only a 15 minute spot for TV; it would be a start. Certainly, the current technology makes this possible. What we are facing is proving to the financial community that a classical 2D film has perpetuity, that it can make money, even on its first release. We have to prove this with more than mere words. This challenge is not for the faint of heart; it may take sacrifice. Maybe it will happen in your garage. Waiting for any corporation to make your dreams come true is a poor investment of your time.

I think I have found part of the key for achieving my dream here at Don Bluth Animation. I'm looking forward to learning from and supporting the talented, and accomplished, as well as the beginners and those in between (pardon the pun). At my age i desire community and the ability to play for the fun of it. I like kudos as much as the next guy and human beings like to be recognized I know i do. I grow when I am with intelligent talented people. I hurt myself when i cling to jealousy and comparing myself to others. When I see someone who has everything in terms of talent, desire and youth it sometimes hurts because I am reminded how short life is. I honestly try to compare myself to myself and I don't do this by virtue. i have come to this philosophy the hard way. I am tired of paying the price attached to negativity and jealousy. I will be the first to admit it isn't easy to stay in the practice of comparing myself to myself. I fail often and when I do I suffer the "I'm not good enough" soundtrack in high def. I'm leaning my self worth is already inside me and when comparing myself to others i have always fallen short because my eye has been on them and not on the goodness in myself. I'm making progress as an animator and a human being.

[jeremyfries]

I don't want to go too far off topic, but I've always wanted to make a short animated adaptation of D.H. Lawrence's "The Rocking Horse Winner" (http://www.dowse.com/fiction/Lawrence.html). It's a bit dark--certainly not the normal mainstream type of story--but it's still "family friendly." Anyone interested?

[jeremyfries]

By the way, that's a great post, Richtoonz!

[zanekohler]

I think I have found part of the key for achieving my dream here at Don Bluth Animation. I'm looking forward to learning from and supporting the talented, and accomplished, as well as the beginners and those in between (pardon the pun). At my age i desire community and the ability to play for the fun of it. I like kudos as much as the next guy and human beings like to be recognized I know i do. I grow when I am with intelligent talented people. I hurt myself when i cling to jealousy and comparing myself to others. When I see someone who has everything in terms of talent, desire and youth it sometimes hurts because I am reminded how short life is. I honestly try to compare myself to myself and I don't do this by virtue. i have come to this philosophy the hard way. I am tired of paying the price attached to negativity and jealousy. I will be the first to admit it isn't easy to stay in the practice of comparing myself to myself. I fail often and when I do I suffer the "I'm not good enough" soundtrack in high def. I'm leaning my self worth is already inside me and when comparing myself to others i have always fallen short because my eye has been on them and not on the goodness in myself. I'm making progress as an animator and a human being.

Well said. I think this is something we all go through in our own ways but not shared enough.

[madanimator]

The idea of a project, done by the donclub members sounds interesting and also Jeremy's point of finishing the Cyber Garage Project.
I think, the CGP was kind of a test, to see if a project with donbluth members would work. And, of course, it was a challenge for everyone. But it's not finished yet, which makes me kind of pessimistic... Sorry to say that, maybe I'm just in a pessimistic mood now, or just tired, but if we REALLY wanna do a GOOD project, that can be showed on festivals or tv, and which should make money, it would take a long time to produce and each of us has things besides that project - work, family, school etc. Don's "Woodpile cat" took 4 years to make. So we must notice that the project we decide to make would take us at least 4 years. Ok, it could be done in less time, but I think, we should take all time we can get to make this film a good one. It's senseless to work very hard on a film for 1 year and the film looks so so in the end, when you could have done it in 4 years and make an awesome film. So I think when we choose a story idea, it must be one everyone is pleased with, because it would be hard to work on a project for that long time period when you're not totally back the project.
And I don't know, but maybe we could ask friends etc. if they want to join our project - when we decided which we're going to make. Because we will need every hand, I think :)
The other thing I want to mention is, that we must think about why we want to make that short film. Is it to bring 2d animation back? ... hard to do that with a singe short... Is it to show it on festivals, youtube, internet in general?
Do we want to make money with it? And I'm not an expert of the animation industry, so I ask, how can I do money with a short? Who would pay for it? Because I don't know any student- made short film that was shown in the theater. So does it mean that if we want to make money, we have to sell the short film to a tv channel? I'm sorry, I really don't have any idea about that...
And there're so many other questions, which must discussed carefully, but in generell I like the idea of doing a project like this. And, Jeremy, your idea about that each one of us do his/her own short and then combining them is really interesting! I think I saw a short that was done that way. The only thing to consider would be that we must have one theme, and the most important thing is that the transition from one clip to another must be somehow planned, so the short would seem fluid. It would be like an experiment.
So maybe the final question would be now, what do we want to do - finish the Cyber Garage Project, or begin and discuss a new project?
(sorry for that long post... :rolleyes:)

[OwenWelsh]

It would be great to finish the CGP. The next project Don has coming up is The Happy Prince. I think it would be a good idea that for all those who are interested in his project pick up a copy of the book. I found one for very cheap on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141327790/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0679444734&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0AY8T4PT21TSGBVBJ5YJ

[jeremyfries]

Great idea, Owen! But you can read it online for free here (http://www.online-literature.com/wilde/177/), as you can with most public domain literature. Or, if you don't like reading on the computer, most libraries have copies of books containing compilations of classic short stories.

[zanekohler]

Great Idea Owen, Thanks for the link.
Also great find Jeremy on the online link.
Thanks

[joedorsey]

Here's an animated version (http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/Product.asp?sku=D49192) for television of The Happy Prince (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071596/) done back in 1974. I checked on some of the animators. Some had worked on "Yellow Submarine" and "Heavy Metal". One gentleman named Gary Mooney was an assistant animator on "Sleeping Beauty" and "Lady And The Tramp".

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/lovecrusader#p/u/18/YI92hDyI2HY)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/user/lovecrusader#p/u/17/twRgeQhVAFI)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/user/lovecrusader#p/u/16/5vy5OAU4Cg0)

[Rich-E]

yawn scratch fart...

[joedorsey]

yawn scratch fart...

Good morning! :)

[Rich-E]

good morgan to you to! sorry my morning routine is kinda earthy....

[joedorsey]

Wouldn't have it any other way...

[jeremyhopkins]

think, the CGP was kind of a test, to see if a project with donbluth members would work. And, of course, it was a challenge for everyone. But it's not finished yet, which makes me kind of pessimistic... Sorry to say that, maybe I'm just in a pessimistic mood now, or just tired, but if we REALLY wanna do a GOOD project, that can be showed on festivals or tv, and which should make money, it would take a long time to produce and each of us has things besides that project - work, family, school etc.

Yes, it's difficult to find the balance between work, school and family. The great thing about the way you animate Beatrice is that you work fast and get a lot done quickly. Having that time management skill is a huge asset.
Working on an unpaid project is a hobby rather than job so there has to be some understanding that more pressing responsibilities come first. That said, I believe if someone is genuinely interested in animation and has the time, they will make room for interesting projects. It's no different than athletes who spend hours training for a chance to win gold without sponsorship. Maybe having a general guideline of a solid hour a day dedicated to animation is a good rule of thumb for a project. Then the goal is how to do more with that hour rather burning out and over working the process.


And there're so many other questions, which must discussed carefully, but in generell I like the idea of doing a project like this. And, Jeremy, your idea about that each one of us do his/her own short and then combining them is really interesting! I think I saw a short that was done that way. The only thing to consider would be that we must have one theme, and the most important thing is that the transition from one clip to another must be somehow planned, so the short would seem fluid. It would be like an experiment.
Yes, I think the film would have to be boarded all together first and it would need a hook to make each style fit. It doesn't have to complicated. Marv Newland did it with anijam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANnBBveCFM) and the gobelin's students did with Le Building. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaGZ5jbKZbY) Again, it all depends on the feel of the film that we want. It's a great opportunity to give more and not just be a tool in production. Personally I don't mind being a cog in the system either but I realize that today it isn't enough. Each person in production has to be a creator, they have to be able to tell stories and be responsible for engaging audiences. The time of just being an animator has passed long ago and that's especially true in the independent world. We have to be to lead when necessary and also fit in to a production. That's why it's so important to put ego aside and just do what's right for the films. The production model is always changing so maybe in 10 or 20 years, the internet will be the main way we get content but what won't ever change is the desire for people to be entertained and people who know how to do it.

So if I was going to break up the goals, the first one should be knowing how to entertain audiences. I believe if you can do that, the technical skill and money may come but if you can't, then no amount of technique or money will make people care.

[zanekohler]

Another thing I think Don had mentioned was getting everybody up to a level where we could do a short. I think that is possibly why the Cyber Garage project had struggled a little. He had mentioned he felt he through a few people in the deep end.

It sounds like Don wants to have a few animation exercises that will help build skills to be later used to use in a short project.

I am just thinking out loud here.... I agree that it would be good idea to have a few exercise projects to do first. Maybe like a series of projects/course set up from basic to more advanced. Once people finish the "course" they could then be placed onto the short project. Anyway , again just thinking out loud.

I know he has his courses that he is working on which very may well be doing this exact thing.

[Leo]

The idea of a project, done by the donclub members sounds interesting and also Jeremy's point of finishing the Cyber Garage Project.
I think, the CGP was kind of a test, to see if a project with donbluth members would work. And, of course, it was a challenge for everyone. But it's not finished yet, which makes me kind of pessimistic... Sorry to say that, maybe I'm just in a pessimistic mood now, or just tired, but if we REALLY wanna do a GOOD project, that can be showed on festivals or tv, and which should make money, it would take a long time to produce and each of us has things besides that project - work, family, school etc. Don's "Woodpile cat" took 4 years to make. So we must notice that the project we decide to make would take us at least 4 years. Ok, it could be done in less time, but I think, we should take all time we can get to make this film a good one. It's senseless to work very hard on a film for 1 year and the film looks so so in the end, when you could have done it in 4 years and make an awesome film. So I think when we choose a story idea, it must be one everyone is pleased with, because it would be hard to work on a project for that long time period when you're not totally back the project.
And I don't know, but maybe we could ask friends etc. if they want to join our project - when we decided which we're going to make. Because we will need every hand, I think :)
The other thing I want to mention is, that we must think about why we want to make that short film. Is it to bring 2d animation back? ... hard to do that with a singe short... Is it to show it on festivals, youtube, internet in general?
Do we want to make money with it? And I'm not an expert of the animation industry, so I ask, how can I do money with a short? Who would pay for it? Because I don't know any student- made short film that was shown in the theater. So does it mean that if we want to make money, we have to sell the short film to a tv channel? I'm sorry, I really don't have any idea about that...
And there're so many other questions, which must discussed carefully, but in generell I like the idea of doing a project like this. And, Jeremy, your idea about that each one of us do his/her own short and then combining them is really interesting! I think I saw a short that was done that way. The only thing to consider would be that we must have one theme, and the most important thing is that the transition from one clip to another must be somehow planned, so the short would seem fluid. It would be like an experiment.
So maybe the final question would be now, what do we want to do - finish the Cyber Garage Project, or begin and discuss a new project?
(sorry for that long post... :rolleyes:)

I like your project too

[arif]

Another thing I think Don had mentioned was getting everybody up to a level where we could do a short. I think that is possibly why the Cyber Garage project had struggled a little. He had mentioned he felt he through a few people in the deep end.

It sounds like Don wants to have a few animation exercises that will help build skills to be later used to use in a short project.

I am just thinking out loud here.... I agree that it would be good idea to have a few exercise projects to do first. Maybe like a series of projects/course set up from basic to more advanced. Once people finish the "course" they could then be placed onto the short project. Anyway , again just thinking out loud.

I know he has his courses that he is working on which very may well be doing this exact thing.

Hi Zane......

yes, i completely agree with your voice as i posted similar kind of post previously....we need definitely some prospectus or courses where one can easily find out where is he/she standing at the questions of level..........it would be easier for Don also to pick artists for any projects and the one who who will not be there could understand that what he needs to improve or what area he should work ............
it is only the begging of Don`s club......and already it turned out in very interesting shape...i would like to call it school and class......

Regards,
Arif

[Poulpette]

Everything here is very interesting.

I also have some problem with my drawings? I'm definitely not jealous nor especially competitive, but I think I'm too severe with myself.
So when I compare what I do with what I should do, I feel desperate and do nothing? that's a really bad behavior.

I think that also comes from my country. Here in France, generally everybody tells you when you do wrong (teachers first :D), but there are few people who will let you really know when you're improving and in which way.
For example, in school, if you were used to get ?6/20? and now you get ?9/20?, you won't be told ?you're improving, that's good, keep up trying to make progress.?; you would be told ?that's still not that good/good enough.?
I'm on different French drawing boards, and that's pretty much the same thing: you won't really be told something constructive until you reach a high drawing level? but eh, in which way getting some ?your drawings look professional! Great!? comments is really useful? I mean, of course it's cool to get nice comments when you know you're drawing very well, but I think it's more useful to get that kind of comments (especially constructive comments) when you're not ?professional? yet.

In the music system (in which I'm studying) it's pretty much the same (but not only in France). There are a lot of masterclass you can intend. Some of them are for all levels: professionals, semi-professionals, ?beginners?. In those masterclass, I always see a lot of teachers trying to select their students in order to get only the professional ones, because they don't want beginners. Why that? I mean what's the matter with being a beginner who just want to learn and improve?
It's too easy to comment professional work, because you won't have to bother you with technique and smart advices. You'll just have to say ?wow, that's awesome! I love your work.? or ?wow, that's awesome! But that's not really what I like/I would have done this in a different way.?


When I discovered this forum, I was ?shocked?. I mean, something was wrong: the great Don Bluth is making some drawing/animation lessons and giving advices on a simple forum?:confused:
He's not just doing some thousands-dollars-5-days-professionals-dedicated-masterclass-with-one-hour-lesson-a-day? Unbelievable!
Then when I saw how the members were (there are professional giving good advices to beginners, etc.)? well, that's awesome.

Of course you got to make some money for living. But here I feel like art/teaching is the first goal of this community, and that's just great.
Nowadays people are just thinking about how to make more and more money? especially in art. That's too bad.


I'm happy to be here, and I also think that Don's Club is only at its beginning. For sure that's gonna be a great place for animation in a few years (months?).


Well? just for all that, I should try to find more time to work more, just because I'm lucky to be here, with all of you.

I feel good now, and I feel like I shouldn't drop my first dream, which is animation.
I'll work more. Promised!:)

[joedorsey]

This community is so encouraging and challenging. What's great is you can try to develop your own characters and story ideas in a positive setting even as a beginner! Making the transition from copying to creating is tough. Developing characters that are appealing and interesting is a big hurdle.

It seems that we as a group want to focus on a project and do the best we can. Use whatever strengths we have in our current stage of development and push ourselves forward in this craft.

[zanekohler]

Everything here is very interesting.

I also have some problem with my drawings? I'm definitely not jealous nor especially competitive, but I think I'm too severe with myself.
So when I compare what I do with what I should do, I feel desperate and do nothing? that's a really bad behavior.

I think that also comes from my country. Here in France, generally everybody tells you when you do wrong (teachers first ), but there are few people who will let you really know when you're improving and in which way.
For example, in school, if you were used to get ?6/20? and now you get ?9/20?, you won't be told ?you're improving, that's good, keep up trying to make progress.?; you would be told ?that's still not that good/good enough.?
I'm on different French drawing boards, and that's pretty much the same thing: you won't really be told something constructive until you reach a high drawing level? but eh, in which way getting some ?your drawings look professional! Great!? comments is really useful? I mean, of course it's cool to get nice comments when you know you're drawing very well, but I think it's more useful to get that kind of comments (especially constructive comments) when you're not ?professional? yet.



That is sad that there is not more encouragement :( . I have been pretty lucky that most of the places I have attended have been very encouraging. Having been in both I believe positive is way more crucial. There are always going to be people better than you. And it is intimidating because for me my first thought is something like "why does my mind not think to add the details like they have added". Which gets me frustrated. Then when one of those more advanced students turns to you and tells you they were just like you not too long ago. More often than not in a positive community they tend to pass along some tips they had learned along the way on to your drawings. Then all of a sudden that jealousy turns into inspiration! What I really find amazing about places like this...once the flood gates open on positive energy it is amazing the type of community it becomes. It does not matter on your skill level anymore. This is going to sound really cheesy... but it becomes a community united by one dream....to animate. I am very excited about this site...and one of the biggest reasons is I get to virtually hang with everybody here that has that same dream!
So go out there and draw the day! ;)

[lavallelee]

That is sad that there is not more encouragement :( . I have been pretty lucky that most of the places I have attended have been very encouraging. Having been in both I believe positive is way more crucial. There are always going to be people better than you. And it is intimidating because for me my first thought is something like "why does my mind not think to add the details like they have added". Which gets me frustrated. Then when one of those more advanced students turns to you and tells you they were just like you not too long ago. More often than not in a positive community they tend to pass along some tips they had learned along the way on to your drawings. Then all of a sudden that jealousy turns into inspiration! What I really find amazing about places like this...once the flood gates open on positive energy it is amazing the type of community it becomes. It does not matter on your skill level anymore. This is going to sound really cheesy... but it becomes a community united by one dream....to animate. I am very excited about this site...and one of the biggest reasons is I get to virtually hang with everybody here that has that same dream!
So go out there and draw the day! ;)

Inspiring words Zane. I'm going to draw some more right now!

[Rich-E]

i have desire to be the best that i can be. (even at my age)

i'm very happy to compare myself to myself at this point in my life and i am getting stronger in doing so. this practice is giving me a freedom to enjoy and admire others like never before. as i grow i am getting in touch with my more playful side and it is easier to be myself and have fun. i have been a serious and solitary person not taking much time for things that make me laugh or give me pleasure.

i enjoy my solitude and i am finding it necessary to balance this need for solitude by interacting with others. i have always admired people who found others important and innately have the ability to care. there is something about these people that is very comforting and safe. i aspire to be like these people but it doesn't come to me naturally, i unfortunately must work at it.

i have a growing sense of uniqueness and a deeper acceptance of myself and my humanity. this is allowing me to see the beauty and uniqueness in others and more importantly the honoring and acception of their humanity.

what does this have to do with animation?

i don't know but it makes me feel good.

children need to be nurtured and know they are loved and accepted for who they are. children need to be taught, in my opinion, that they are inherently good. this is true i believe for children and it is true for me.

[zanekohler]

This post is becoming very inspirational and therapeutic! I honestly do think this very cool to hear everybody talk about this area of one's self, art and community. That sounds like a book title "Life, Art and Community: Sketches for the Soul".;)

[jeremyhopkins]

Thanks for sharing Rich! You always have great insights.

[arif]

hmmm...........i LOVE this place........................seems like all good people and big hearten souls are working here which is very rare now and days in this world............................

and Rich...........again, thank you so much to join here and shares your insightful thoughts among us.......it is so encouraging for me always...

Regards,
Arif:)

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

Everything here is very interesting.

I also have some problem with my drawings? I'm definitely not jealous nor especially competitive, but I think I'm too severe with myself.
So when I compare what I do with what I should do, I feel desperate and do nothing? that's a really bad behavior.

I think that also comes from my country. Here in France, generally everybody tells you when you do wrong (teachers first :D), but there are few people who will let you really know when you're improving and in which way.
For example, in school, if you were used to get ?6/20? and now you get ?9/20?, you won't be told ?you're improving, that's good, keep up trying to make progress.?; you would be told ?that's still not that good/good enough.?
I'm on different French drawing boards, and that's pretty much the same thing: you won't really be told something constructive until you reach a high drawing level? but eh, in which way getting some ?your drawings look professional! Great!? comments is really useful? I mean, of course it's cool to get nice comments when you know you're drawing very well, but I think it's more useful to get that kind of comments (especially constructive comments) when you're not ?professional? yet.

In the music system (in which I'm studying) it's pretty much the same (but not only in France). There are a lot of masterclass you can intend. Some of them are for all levels: professionals, semi-professionals, ?beginners?. In those masterclass, I always see a lot of teachers trying to select their students in order to get only the professional ones, because they don't want beginners. Why that? I mean what's the matter with being a beginner who just want to learn and improve?
It's too easy to comment professional work, because you won't have to bother you with technique and smart advices. You'll just have to say ?wow, that's awesome! I love your work.? or ?wow, that's awesome! But that's not really what I like/I would have done this in a different way.?


When I discovered this forum, I was ?shocked?. I mean, something was wrong: the great Don Bluth is making some drawing/animation lessons and giving advices on a simple forum?:confused:
He's not just doing some thousands-dollars-5-days-professionals-dedicated-masterclass-with-one-hour-lesson-a-day? Unbelievable!
Then when I saw how the members were (there are professional giving good advices to beginners, etc.)? well, that's awesome.

Of course you got to make some money for living. But here I feel like art/teaching is the first goal of this community, and that's just great.
Nowadays people are just thinking about how to make more and more money? especially in art. That's too bad.


I'm happy to be here, and I also think that Don's Club is only at its beginning. For sure that's gonna be a great place for animation in a few years (months?).


Well? just for all that, I should try to find more time to work more, just because I'm lucky to be here, with all of you.

I feel good now, and I feel like I shouldn't drop my first dream, which is animation.
I'll work more. Promised!:)

Don't know about France, but in the US in most of the places the ideology of "there can be only one" is still strong. You are either better than EVERYONE or... so-so. Exceptions may include New York colleges.

[Rich-E]

Everything here is very interesting.

I also have some problem with my drawings… I'm definitely not jealous nor especially competitive, but I think I'm too severe with myself.
So when I compare what I do with what I should do, I feel desperate and do nothing… that's a really bad behavior.

I think that also comes from my country. Here in France, generally everybody tells you when you do wrong (teachers first :D), but there are few people who will let you really know when you're improving and in which way.
For example, in school, if you were used to get “6/20” and now you get “9/20”, you won't be told “you're improving, that's good, keep up trying to make progress.”; you would be told “that's still not that good/good enough.”
I'm on different French drawing boards, and that's pretty much the same thing: you won't really be told something constructive until you reach a high drawing level… but eh, in which way getting some “your drawings look professional! Great!“ comments is really useful? I mean, of course it's cool to get nice comments when you know you're drawing very well, but I think it's more useful to get that kind of comments (especially constructive comments) when you're not “professional” yet.

In the music system (in which I'm studying) it's pretty much the same (but not only in France). There are a lot of masterclass you can intend. Some of them are for all levels: professionals, semi-professionals, “beginners”. In those masterclass, I always see a lot of teachers trying to select their students in order to get only the professional ones, because they don't want beginners. Why that? I mean what's the matter with being a beginner who just want to learn and improve?
It's too easy to comment professional work, because you won't have to bother you with technique and smart advices. You'll just have to say “wow, that's awesome! I love your work.” or “wow, that's awesome! But that's not really what I like/I would have done this in a different way.”


When I discovered this forum, I was “shocked”. I mean, something was wrong: the great Don Bluth is making some drawing/animation lessons and giving advices on a simple forum?:confused:
He's not just doing some thousands-dollars-5-days-professionals-dedicated-masterclass-with-one-hour-lesson-a-day? Unbelievable!
Then when I saw how the members were (there are professional giving good advices to beginners, etc.)… well, that's awesome.

Of course you got to make some money for living. But here I feel like art/teaching is the first goal of this community, and that's just great.
Nowadays people are just thinking about how to make more and more money… especially in art. That's too bad.


I'm happy to be here, and I also think that Don's Club is only at its beginning. For sure that's gonna be a great place for animation in a few years (months?).


Well… just for all that, I should try to find more time to work more, just because I'm lucky to be here, with all of you.

I feel good now, and I feel like I shouldn't drop my first dream, which is animation.
I'll work more. Promised!:)

i can identify with the feelings you describe in your post having been to severe on myself. i have been my own worst critic. i believe that this comes from the erroneous belief that i am not enough as i am or that i am deeply flawed. i don't know if this comes from the religious teachings i had as a child or the teachings of my parents and teachers but somehow i got the message i wasn't enough. this belief results in having fear of going forward while being to severe with myself. i think if i give myself a hard enough time i will have done enough suffering to make myself worthwhile and then somehow redeem myself.
i've been thinking about these thought patterns for some time and have been working on quieting this critical voice. it is a difficult task to learn to love myself especially after living a life of telling myself i don't measure up. i think one can move away from these crippling thought patterns and learn to love and cherish him or herself and in turn feel differently about his life and his fellows.

[johncbeggs]

I also am my own worst critic , except that my inner voice says " what the hell man, you can reach higher than that!". :laughing: - or more exactly thats what I feel like when I Finnish a drawing!


the thing about drawing is the fact that people think you can do it effortlessly, when I get someone calling me a natural or just talented its more of an insult! - like hell were all naturals we spend alot of hard time learning to draw and it never ends! :)

[jeremyfries]

Another great post, Richtoonz!

John, you made me laugh! My wife gets furious when people tell her that she's "naturally slender." She starts yelling, "Oh, you mean all that triathlon training was for nothing?!?!" She has a point, and so do you. Things only come easily to those that work their butts off! :-)

[zanekohler]

the thing about drawing is the fact that people think you can do it effortlessly, when I get someone calling me a natural or just talented its more of an insult! - like hell were all naturals we spend alot of hard time learning to draw and it never ends! :)

Very true! I have had an art teacher that has his own atelier. He is absolutely amazing artist. He has people say all the time how naturally talented he is. He has calculated all his hours of study in the last 15 years. He said the amount of hours of study he could have been a doctor like 3 X over.

Yes there is the passion that keeps us going but that does not neglect the hours we put in to even get to the levels we are now. Also sacrifice. This one sounds funny because I think many of us don't think of it that way all the time. However when we draw or animate for education it pulls us away from more than just tv and video games. It pulls us away from family, friends and even chores. You should see my lawn ( or I beg of you actually not too). I finally just finished Animation Mentor this week. That was 18 months where I probably spent about 10-20 hours each week on assignments. The next time when someone says you must be a natural we can say... The passion is, but the hours are not.

To tie it back in, I know we all see others work and wish we were at that level. We have to remind ourselves that each person has worked to the level they are. We ourselves have to do less wishing and more drawing. Also to keep reminding ourselves it does not come fast or easy. Also as artists I have found even the best are still working to get better. So don't chase an end all goal, love the journey!

[Rich-E]

yes yes learn to love the process

[ericaanimation]

My thoughts on your first statement Mr. Bluth is that "gossip" etc... creates a bad work environment. I just left a negative part time job(non art related) to concentrate on school and learning animation. I think that if negativity gets too bad in a work place that is well actually hinder the creativity in each individual because you will either be the one that is being talked about or the one doing the talking or even both. This kind of attitude does not let you be completely free to be the most creative because it my opinion it block part of the brain because you are thinking about the negativities of the job. So in short the more positive we are to co-worker and the more positive the environment the more creativity and production that will flow and flow smoother.

The thoughts are the second statement about 2D animation and what it will take to get it back on the ground. These words were really powerful and true. As whole we need to stop saying that we wish 2D would come back and actually make a stand for it. 2D animation is a beautiful artwork and would be a shame to lose it just because it feel out of the "trend" of today. If someone have the skill set and the time it has become easier today to produce animation with programs such as DigiCel and such. I think the number one thing it would take for individual to help in the rising of 2D animation from the ashes is dedication without this nothing will ever get done in my opinion. I want to strive to improve my animation skills so that I too can help in this fight to get 2D animation back.

[jeremyhopkins]

I think the number one thing it would take for individual to help in the rising of 2D animation from the ashes is dedication without this nothing will ever get done in my opinion. I want to strive to improve my animation skills so that I too can help in this fight to get 2D animation back.

My take is slightly different. I don't believe hand drawn animation ever went away. That misconception was fueled by Michael Eisner, the previous Disney CEO, in a public fight with Steve Jobs over Pixar animation and his reason to justify creating a whole new studio, Circle 7, dedicated to Pixar sequels. The hand drawn medium was (and isn't) dead but it was a corporate decision because the Pixar films had made more money and Dreamworks, Bluesky and some smaller studios had financial success. It's much easier to lay blame on the medium than it is to take it on the chin and say that the way Eisner and David Stainton managed the studio was stifling creative decisions in the story department. I think we're seeing a version of that today with the name changes on Rapunzel to Tangled and Bear in the Bow to The Brave. Though I'd rather they blame the title than the creative staff or the medium. Anyways, I bring this up not for gossip sake but just to state the issues we have to face today. If we're talking about hand drawn animation entering the public zeitgeist as it did in the early to mid 90's, that might be more difficult because of the legacy we're left with now. However, if we talking about doing what we love, creating stories memorable stories and having an outlet to share our work with others, then there is no better time to be an artist though getting paid for that content is another puzzle that hasn't entirely been solved.

[ericaanimation]

Interesting thoughts. It has died on the major studio and is not being produced like it use to be (is what I meant) level I think because they have become unwelling to produce them before now since 3D animation has gotten popular and is making them money. Is Tangled suppose be 2D or 3D I have heard two different things.


Erica

[Rodney]

Is Tangled suppose be 2D or 3D I have two different things.

From what I've seen and read, 'Tangled' is 3D trying to capture the look and feel (the essence) of traditional 2D.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say Glen Keane is trying to create an animated painting.

[jeremyhopkins]

From what I've seen and read, 'Tangled' is 3D trying to capture the look and feel (the essence) of traditional 2D.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say Glen Keane is trying to create an animated painting.
I think that was the original goal but they had difficulty keeping the cg models from breaking. Its had a 7 or 8 year development cycle and Glen is no longer the director even though some sites still have him and Dean listed for the top spot. It is 3d and what I saw of it, not much, looked good to me.


It has died on the major studio and is not being produced like it use to be (is what I meant) level I think because they have become unwelling to produce them before now since 3D animation has gotten popular and is making them money.
Sure, I understand and that makes sense. It is the reality that aside from Disney, no one is taking a stab at making big box office hand drawn features right now. I don't really see that as a problem because other productions like Miyasaki's films and high quality European films have the opportunity to shine. What would really be nice is if the big studios had some method of showcasing smaller, independent work that's being done inside the studio. Game consoles have figured this out by creating XBox Arcade or the PS3 downloadable store and they balance big budget releases with smaller indy titles. Indy work pushes the ideas while big titles add the polish and have the major marketing budgets. It would be so nice to see a Disney downloadable store on the iphone or ipad that showcases short stories from some of the talent. It doesn't have to be polished; what I'm excited about is the idea. A iphone or ipad store might be a venue for indy creators as well as long as it didn't duplicate functionality that's already available.

[Rodney]

Glen is no longer the director

Thanks Jeremy.
I've heard that as a rumor... and am saddened to hear it.
But, there may still be a silver lining in there somewhere.


they had difficulty keeping the cg models from breaking

Knowing what I know about CG modeling and rigging I don't fully get this.
I do understand the difficulties involved in creating CG models that can strike Glen Keane poses consistently.

I suspect Glen Keane could rough out a couple hundred movies with little difficulty. "Hey guys... try to keep up with this!"

Computers are great (I like 'em) but I think it best to keep Glen Keane drawing every chance he gets. Keep on demonstrating those possibilities Glen!

Perhaps he could get the financing to animate a few shorts featuring his Racoon character.
The one he's written and draw books about... I haven't seen much of him.

The independent spirit found in each of us is definitely in keeping with the theme of this topic; 'A New Beginning'.

Don postulated (in bold):
1) The production money, which will be high-risk capital.
Glen Keane is worth the pennies.

2) The production script, which will need more edge than the usual bill of fare.
Glen's animation is always cutting edge. Edgy scripting can and should accompany it.

3) The distribution and marketing campaign will need to be innovative.
Embrace the internet and present lots of intriguingly innovative free content.

[Moneyguns]

I think that if we wanted to bring back animation we're going to have to raise the standards. I mean Princess and the Frog got an 83% on Rotten Tomatoes. We as animators would all probably say, "Yeaaa...:D," but in all honesty (whispering) no one else really cares.:)

I think entertainment in itself is a service, and it's a good idea to remember we're not making this for are selfs, but for everyone else in the world.

[Don Bluth]

From what I've seen and read, 'Tangled' is 3D trying to capture the look and feel (the essence) of traditional 2D.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say Glen Keane is trying to create an animated painting.

Hi Rodney,
Forgive me for stepping into this conversation. With the release of Avatar and its 3D technology (three dimensional cameras) the term "3D," now alludes to two different things: 1)The term "3D" is currently being used in the live action world for movies shot with either dedicated three dimensional camera equipment or for standard films which have gone through the 3D conversion process. Both requiring the viewer to wear glasses to appreciate the true 3D effect. 2)In the animation world we have also been using the term "3D," when refering to CG animation. Rather than confuse ourselves any further, I wonder if we shouldn't stick with the term CG animation and leave the "3D" term to the live action people? What do you think?
Don

[Tamias]

But then you've got movies like Bolt and How To Train Your Dragon, which were made with CGi and then converted to 3D, so they're both kinds of 3D...

And then there was the original run of The Princess and the Frog, which was 2D animation with 3D effects... which was bizarre.

Oh, all the different combinations are making my head spin! D:

[Rodney]

Hi Rodney,
Forgive me for stepping into this conversation. With the release of Avatar and its 3D technology (three dimensional cameras) the term "3D," now alludes to two different things: 1)The term "3D" is currently being used in the live action world for movies shot with either dedicated three dimensional camera equipment or for standard films which have gone through the 3D conversion process. Both requiring the viewer to wear glasses to appreciate the true 3D effect. 2)In the animation world we have also been using the term "3D," when refering to CG animation. Rather than confuse ourselves any further, I wonder if we shouldn't stick with the term CG animation and leave the "3D" term to the live action people? What do you think?
Don

Don,
I think I can agree. You threw that 'live action' term in there at the end that has me still considering...

3D is a term that has been confusing even in the CG industry. As you state, strictly speaking 3D is where we have to wear those funky glasses. This is set to be even more confusing as 3D TVs become ubiquitous and the illusion of 3D is created on the screen (i.e. no requirement for the glasses).

As I've been leaning into CG since about '94 separating the term 3D from CG has been a little difficult for me. The problem arises in the creation phase as the objects, characters and actions are all occurring in three dimensions (four dimensions really as we have to consider the timing). If that isn't 3D... I don't know what else it would be. There are elements in CG that are 2D and 3D.

Regardless of what 3D is to me, 3D to the audience is that illusion that appears the screen.

Added: I can't think of a good example (I didn't see it but I think a Roger Rabbit short was released in 3D?) we can also have hand drawn animation in 3D where elements of the background recede and foreground elements appear to pop out of the screen. Comic books are also well known for utilizing the process to create the illusion of 3D. Of course in this case the page or the panels are the screen.

Edit: I should be the one apologizing to Don for stepping into his conversation. Sorry Don!

[Wearedoomed]

Hi Rodney,
Forgive me for stepping into this conversation. With the release of Avatar and its 3D technology (three dimensional cameras) the term "3D," now alludes to two different things: 1)The term "3D" is currently being used in the live action world for movies shot with either dedicated three dimensional camera equipment or for standard films which have gone through the 3D conversion process. Both requiring the viewer to wear glasses to appreciate the true 3D effect. 2)In the animation world we have also been using the term "3D," when refering to CG animation. Rather than confuse ourselves any further, I wonder if we shouldn't stick with the term CG animation and leave the "3D" term to the live action people? What do you think?
Don

Hmm....You bring up a very valid point, Mr. Bluth! ^_^ It's a wonder no one else has pointed that out yet (or at least to my knowledge lol).

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

Since it's not April 1st yet, ai iz srs.

Maybe... just maybe... Don wants US to do the next movie? I mean, his goal in the first place was to teach a new generation of animators. And he always told us that if we want something, we must do it ourselves.

Maybe... I'm right? What do you think?

[Rodney]

Maybe... I'm right? What do you think?

I believe you are on to something here.

Just as Don has had a steady hand in teaching thousands of the worlds most talented animators over the years, there is no doubt in my mind some here in this forum will carry the torch of hand drawn animation (with pegs, pencil and paper even!) forward into the future.

Cheers!

[Tamias]

I thought that was the entire point of this thread! Has no one yet taken an initiative to this effect? I know we're all learning here, but that shouldn't stop us from getting together to do some project or another. More cyber garage projects and better outreach to developing artists would be a step in the right direction.

Although, perhaps the future of animation has already begun in a thread I am not privy to and I'm just talking out my butt. Whatever the case, I don't think we should wait much longer!

[jeremyfries]

Patience, Tamias! :D Things are going on, even though they aren't all visible.

I've been working on pre-production (storyboards, etc.) for my own project for a while, and I'd love to join with other people in this community for the animation stage of the project. Equally, I'm very interested in animating on the personal projects of others in this community (and I know that people have been working on them!).

Furthermore, I'm sure that Don has his own projects in mind. The thing that impresses me most about Don is that he is a thinker. He really seems to spend a lot of time looking at the big picture and how he can positively impact the art form, the industry, and us as individuals. I think I represent all of us when I say that we really appreciate that about him!

I think that our job at the moment is to draw as much as we can, learn as much as we can, and improve as fast as we can, remembering that we compete against ourselves rather than each other. Then, we will be all the more prepared when the projects start coming our way.

One thing you said was really great: we shouldn't let the fact that we are still learning stop us from trying to do more projects. I heartily agree!

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

I thought that was the entire point of this thread! Has no one yet taken an initiative to this effect? I know we're all learning here, but that shouldn't stop us from getting together to do some project or another. More cyber garage projects and better outreach to developing artists would be a step in the right direction.

Although, perhaps the future of animation has already begun in a thread I am not privy to and I'm just talking out my butt. Whatever the case, I don't think we should wait much longer!

No no no, I mean, maybe... he chose not to do any films anymore... and leave it completely to us (us - excluding me).

[johncbeggs]

No no no, I mean, maybe... he chose not to do any films anymore... and leave it completely to us (us - excluding me).

okay I have to step in!! Don is a smart cookie, no way would he open this site just to train others to make their own films... that being said Don would already have his plans written out and his main goal such as my own is big because I would dream big and I know Dons also a Dreamer.

the schooling part maybe just a stepping stone to what hes really dreaming!

"Don I know your letting out little hints at your real goals for this site and count me in!":D

[Rodney]

Making a film is a fine idea but I need to learn to crawl before learning to take a trip into outer space so my goals are a bit more modest.

Perhaps we'll make a film someday.
Today I want to learn to animate.
.
Edit: I can't even seem to find the time to enter the monthly challenge so I'm not about to animate a film.
Besides... read Don's first post in this topic. Don said short commercial. ;)

[jeremyfries]

Rodney, I totally see your point. Yes, we ALL need to crawl before we can walk. However, one of the great things about animating a short film is that it forces you to learn as you animate. Now, I'm not for one minute going to suggest that it is ok to produce a film of poor quality. I'm simply stating that it is a very useful learning tool.

I think another point that you have made (if only by assumption) is that a relative beginner won't be able to animate a short film. I believe this is only partially correct. Animation is very intensive, slow work, and a short film could definitely be too much for one person. If we work together, however, we can do a lot!

Here's an example: let's just say--and I'm just using numbers that aren't meant to be necessarily realistic--that it takes each of us one month to complete a well-animated scene in a sequence. Well, it would take one person ages to do a short film at that rate. But if 100 of us each animated a scene in one month, we could accomplish something truly amazing!

Is it as simple as that? Perhaps not, but never underestimate what can happen when people unite with the same goal!

[jeremyhopkins]

Nice ideas Jeremy! There was a suggestion long ago to have everyone do the same scene from the cyber garage project and watch how we all approach it differently. Another interesting idea would be to do the flour sack test because it removes the stress of keeping so many features on model. If someone can make an empathetic character with just a sack, there's a good chance they can do it with a full character. Perhaps having a ball roll in a scene and with character doing something with it and then have the ball roll off screen could be another option. Overall my suggestion is to keep it simple and build off of success of finishing an entertaining film or test.

[johncbeggs]

I like the, " all animating the same scene idea"!.

would help us all think outside the box abit :D

[Rodney]

Jeremy (fries),
Your emphasis is on a short film so I have no problem there. (a few reservations but few problems)

If someone says they want to make a film I'll do everything within my power (within reason!) to help them do it. Having been involved in a feature length (CG) film created by a mix of complete beginners, amatuers and talented aspirants I know it can be done. It can also be as painful as it is wonderful. (Some of those folks still aren't talking to each other)

As a cautionary tale it may be worth recalling, the majority of people who start any given project (not just animation) will for one reason or another not stick with or complete that project. On the up side, anyone and everyone who helps out by getting involved in such a project generally helps the project move along. Still, its good if we can withstand a day or two of resistance to an idea. If not, we are likely doomed before we even get started.

In making any film (short or long) there will be some tough times.
Positive thinking and good intentions can only carry a project so far.

In order to create new beginnings in animation all we have to do is get started with a frame or two of animation. If we can draw two or three frames then we might as well draw 24. Then with that second done, we can surely animate another.

I like Don's idea of a short commercial because... with some styles of drawing... some commercials will have less of a need to have the animation drawings cleaned up! (of course in order to be commercially successful the standard of quality must hold up)

[jeremyfries]

Thanks, Rodney. I don't really have much to add to what you said, but I found myself reading and re-reading your post and pondering your points for a while. And that's a good thing.

Jeremy, those ideas you mentioned all sound fun to me! I agree with you that keeping it simple is best at this point.

[Tamias]

Iiiiiii'm excited :3

[Rich-E]

i have no idea where my desire to animate will take me.
before this forum and don's club i worked at drawing and animation everyday pretty much in isolation. i started posting my animations on facebook because it gave me something to look forward to and perhaps even a chance to connect with others who love this art form. the going was slow in terms of making connections and creating a community to say the least.

having been introduced to the club i can see myself developing in ways that are surprising to me and my level of commitment has grown deeper. i appreciate being able to show my work and enjoy the work of others along with the opportunity to develop friendships.

i have always been a late starter. i was introduce to the joys of marriage at the ripe old age of forty-seven and i wouldn't trade it for the world but that is another story.

at thirty-one i had a life changing experience and wanted to make some radical changes. i decided that what i wanted was to be an artist and more specifically i wanted to make steel sculpture. i had no training but i had desire. i went to trade school and learned to weld well enough to land a job as an iron worker. i saved my money for equipment and studio space and was quite willing to support my artistic endeavors with my welding skills as long as necessary. i will never forget the sense of adventure and the joy and excitement of the struggle to make art. i did not think it possible to make a living from my sculpture. a friend told me that "if you do what you love the money will come." i of course did not believe this. "you don't understand, i said, things like that don't happen to me". my friend was right the money came and it was exhilarating. i enjoyed a moderate success in terms of finances but the personal success was monumental.

i sold my personal work to collectors but my bread and butter came from commissions for objects people wanted in their homes or gardens and public commissions were a huge headache for me. eventually i came to the conclusion i was just doing a job having to please the client. granted, i was able to use my creativity but the joy just went out of it and i wasn't happy.
i lost the ability and desire to create for myself because, yes, money is important.

looking back on the process and srtuggle of satisfying my creativity and achieving my goal of making steel sculpture were some of the most satisfying times of my life.
i feel about animation the way i felt about my sculpture in the early years. i'm willing to work at it without expectation and working at it gives me great pleasure. the thing i am realizing is the process or the moment is where the enjoyment and excitement is for me. it seems that if i can stay in that moment nothing else matters. i feel alive.


who knows what the future holds? i don't! the only things i can be certain of are death and taxes.

the place i am making an effort to stay in is the everlasting now, and this isn't always easy. i feel better in the now than i do when i am worried about the when and if.

richtoonz

[Alexandra Poston]

This year at SCAD there were four very talented students who directed four very ambitious 2D student films in one year. The shortest was one minute, and the longest was about four minutes and a half. Each student had a production team (the four minute film got up to fifty people), and since each of the directors were friends with each other, they helped each other out and through a lot of sleepless nights got all the films done on time ( they're finishing up the last few bits of cleanup now before they graduate and their films are screened for the school).

I got to work on two of these films and while watching the development of each of the productions, start to finish, I really got a reality check on /how much work/ it takes to make even a mediocre film. I also went to the library to see if I could figure out how much work went into each step of pre-production and production for some of Don's films. From the day that we each recieved a print of the script, and were assigned our work, we had a producer checking up on us every few days to make sure we would keep production on schedule. Every week we had a production meeting so that the director could show the whole crew what work had been done - this made the students more motivated to finish by a deadline, so that the director ( a friend and a person they admired) wouldn't be dissapointed, and so that they can get group critique from the crew. Also, it's extremely inspiring to see a group of talented people pumping out artwork - even though none of it is required for a class. I personally feel that it's most productive working in close proximity to the talent around you =/ but I know that's pretty impossible with a group like us, huh? Animation is a social, team effort!

Tieing this back to us.
I feel that the CGP project was really a learning and experience point for all of us. A lot of us don't have the opportunity to go to an art school for animation, so this is damn well the next best thing. Instead of assignments, you all got scenes. The difference, I feel though, is that here at school I was assigned a good twenty or thirty exercises and assignments /before/ I was asked to work in a real production. Being well experienced with all twelve principles, learning to draw well and on-model, and most of all, learning how to effectively /act/, are all important steps that need to be handled well before making a quality film.

I'm beginning to work on my senior film, with the working title 'The Snow Maiden' (I'll spice it up later), which has a goal of 1.5 to two minutes - and when I pitched even that to my professor, he looked a little skeptic. Short is important. If you can make something brilliant that's short, chances are with some more time, you can make something that's 15 minutes long and brilliant.

Instead of making multiple short films and putting them together, I think we should concentrate on making one short short and seeing what happens. Even a one minute film - that way everyone can work their shots to perfection. That also means we can spend more time on pre-production, on storyboards, on layout, and on clean-up and color. No matter what we make, however - Deadlines are important, and especially the motivation to keep to them.

Wow, long rant, my bad.

[jeremyhopkins]

KlarkKentThe3rd, I appreciate your desire to share your thoughts with others but Alexandra spent time writing a very nice, thoughtful post based on her student experience. If you don't want to read a longer post, that's fine, just move on to a different thread or topic. Thanks.

[LordDirk]

I agree with just about every point that was made. Having worked in the industry for just about a summer, a rather privileged summer to which I count myself very lucky, I am confident in saying that I have found animators to be some of the greatest people I have ever met.

Working in an environment with good communication, a dedication to professional artwork, and still having the capacity and freedom to just have fun; it's almost too much to ask to get paid for it.

Though I have heard a lot of nay saying about the film industry opening up in states such as my home state Michigan, I couldn't be more happy for such a wonderful industry beginning to blossom here. So many artists and friends of mine feel that there just isn't work for anyone in animation except in LA, yet in places like Detroit I have found nothing but creative and unique stories being told by artists looking to find their voice.

I guess I would like to tie this in by saying, yes being able to move is important, especially if you are working on project based employment. Also I would like to say that if you can't find what you are looking for, then be the one to make it.

Best a luck

[themonster]

I am new around, I saw this video:

Ralph Bakshi: Surviving In Tough Times:

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Legendary animation director, Ralph Bakshi discusses how he survived the collapse of theatrical animation and offers tips to current animators for how to succeed in the cartoon business. ( ASIFA-Hollywood / www.animationarchive.org / San Diego Comic-Con 2008 )


I watch this video every time....................truly inspiration.............

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

I am new around, I saw this video:

Ralph Bakshi: Surviving In Tough Times:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WApcUBcVMos&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WApcUBcVMos&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Legendary animation director, Ralph Bakshi discusses how he survived the collapse of theatrical animation and offers tips to current animators for how to succeed in the cartoon business. ( ASIFA-Hollywood / www.animationarchive.org / San Diego Comic-Con 2008 )


I watch this video every time....................truly inspiration.............

Wake me up when Last Days on Coney Island is complete.

[themonster]

Well is NOT about him, is about what he is talking about in the video, about us, about that a few guys can make a proyect more easy with the computers, for finishing, inking, fx, editing, music, etc..........innovation, something new, creativity.........a few friends, a few computers, we can make our own films or short films.........

like Don Bluth are saying, a new beginning, a new generation,
I am happy because Don Bluth is sharing with us, a new generation the traditional animation, that's really a new beginning........

another example is the forum of the software: Animation Master, they made an animation MOVIE, with all the users of the software around internet:

Tin Woodman of Oz
http://wiki.hash.com/index.php?title=Main_Page_Two

http://www.hash.com/forums/uploads/monthly_09_2007/post-294-1191173651.jpg

so is not impossible.........

If I make any mistake, sorry, I am new in 2d animation............

[jeremyhopkins]

I thought it was a good interview also and appropriate to this thread. Get out there and start creating!

[feliceworkshop]

Ralph Bakshi is an amazing artist and this great video will go straight into my "Inspiring Video" folder where all kind of great video interviews with Don Bluth, Glen kean, Richard Williams,Miyazaki.....etc are stored!
Thank you themonster for posting :)

[Rodney]

another example is the forum of the software: Animation Master, they made an animation MOVIE, with all the users of the software around internet:

Tin Woodman of Oz
http://wiki.hash.com/index.php?title=Main_Page_Two

Appreciate the plug! :)

Tin Woodman of Oz was quite an undertaking, created by a group of enthusiastic folks with a desire to learn how to create an animated film. It was a great learning experience.

The second movie 'Scarecrow of Oz' is about to wrap up with the last few sequences being animated now. There is talk of a third movie but several of the key modelers/riggers/animators are 'All Oz'd out' for the time being. ;)

[Don Bluth]

I am new around, I saw this video:

Ralph Bakshi: Surviving In Tough Times:


Legendary animation director, Ralph Bakshi discusses how he survived the collapse of theatrical animation and offers tips to current animators for how to succeed in the cartoon business. ( ASIFA-Hollywood / www.animationarchive.org / San Diego Comic-Con 2008 )


I watch this video every time....................truly inspiration.............

Thanks for posting the Bakshi interview. All the years that he produced films have given him great wisdom. He is absolutely right in counseling the young would-be traditional animators to network and find a way to produce their own films. We live in amazing times; the computers have lifted the burden of repetitive labor that was so much a part of our business in the past. The simple truth is: The majority of our time can be spent creating and mining new ideas.
When Xerox was the process to get the drawings on to cels, I used to complain because we no longer had colored inked lines defining the characters. With computers, all the colored lines have returned and the drawings are in perfect registration. Even the effect of the legendary multi plane camera that was pioneered by Disney at great expense is now available to any student in the form of a software package.
Ralph is correct! The real challenge today is to harness your imagination, dispel laziness and make it happen.

[Don Bluth]

Thanks for posting the Bakshi interview. All the years that he produced films have given him great wisdom. He is absolutely right in counseling the young would-be traditional animators to network and find a way to produce their own films. We live in amazing times; the computers have lifted the burden of repetitive labor that was so much a part of our business in the past. The simple truth is: The majority of our time can be spent creating and mining new ideas.
When Xerox was the process to get the drawings on to cels, I used to complain because we no longer had colored inked lines defining the characters. With computers, all the colored lines have returned and the drawings are in perfect registration. Even the effect of the legendary multi plane camera that was pioneered by Disney at great expense is now available to any student in the form of a software package.
Ralph is correct! The real challenge today is to harness your imagination, dispel laziness and make it happen.

Having said all this, however, I would like to add some of my personal feelings on the subject. The masterful work that the Nine Old Men and the countless other artists have contributed to my own happiness is without measure. I can only be grateful that they labored diligently to put on to the movie screen such visions of beauty. I do not think it is productive to characterize their work as moldy-fig or old fashioned. Their contribution to the world of animation had a positive effect on my attitude during my childhood and as an adult, and their work is still influencing the lives of millions for the good.
The wonderful part about the world of art is its variety and that is what we should celebrate. I can only hope that future artists will be kind when evaluating my own contribution to the world of animation.

[jeremyhopkins]

The extreme reactions and cynical nature of animation enthusiasts are issues that concern me as well. We have a wonderful heritage of animation artists and illustrators with some of the most important contributions made from 1900's to the 1950's. It would be shame to discount their efforts and talents. Fortunately, we're able to rediscover a lot of these great artists who may have gone unnoticed thanks to the internet and blogs. Everyone is ok with an honest critique but the internet culture today tends to be more about attention and sometimes the easiest way to get exposure is to belittle others in an entertaining way. While I think the video was more of a wake up call to animators to stop punishing themselves for not being able to draw and animate like Milt, I agree, it wasn't tactful. I'm hopeful we can strike a balance between respecting the past creators and learning techniques while applying present day experiences.

[Phrogger]

I am very slowly wading my way through these important threads.

Someone hit on this earlier, but I do think that leadership is an important factor in producing even a short film. This leader (director?) would select and refine the story, storyboard it, maybe even do all of the extremes and then farm out the bulk of the other labor and coordinate it. Doing everything "democratically" (voting on stories and whatnot) usually ends up producing junk. Anyone who doesn't believe in a project shouldn't participate.

Also, even though everyone is very kind and trusts each other here, a simple contract of some kind would go a long way in making sure everyone involved is treated fairly. It doesn't have to involve pay, but the right to use footage in your personal reel, credits, copyright, deadlines, etc. should be spelled out. That saves fights along the way and later on.

I am still learning the ropes, but in the near future I can see myself offering to help with someone's project once my school load lets up a bit. Maybe inbetweens, cleanup, editing, something like that. Keep me in mind, OK?

[Dave]

I am very slowly wading my way through these important threads.

Someone hit on this earlier, but I do think that leadership is an important factor in producing even a short film. This leader (director?) would select and refine the story, storyboard it, maybe even do all of the extremes and then farm out the bulk of the other labor and coordinate it. Doing everything "democratically" (voting on stories and whatnot) usually ends up producing junk. Anyone who doesn't believe in a project shouldn't participate.

Also, even though everyone is very kind and trusts each other here, a simple contract of some kind would go a long way in making sure everyone involved is treated fairly. It doesn't have to involve pay, but the right to use footage in your personal reel, credits, copyright, deadlines, etc. should be spelled out. That saves fights along the way and later on.

I am still learning the ropes, but in the near future I can see myself offering to help with someone's project once my school load lets up a bit. Maybe inbetweens, cleanup, editing, something like that. Keep me in mind, OK?

That's right Phrogger... Lay out the rules or in this case, a simple contract, before the game is played that way there's no ambiguity about everyones roles. Good thinking Bat-Man!

[joedorsey]

I found this comment by John K. about the contentions amongst the old animators. It's sad to see these kind of grudges between such talented artists of the time. :(


"I wonder if any of those rumors I keep hearing about Clampett"
Those rumors are just that-rumors, started by Jones who was jealous of him.

I interviewed lots of the old guys and they all bad-mouthed each other-except for Clampett who talked about how talented all his colleagues were. He lauded McKimson profusely while others bashed him. McKimson bashed Clampett-yet did his best work for him. He also bashed Fleischer cartoons which is crazy, since his own style was more similar to theirs than it was to Disney's. Friz bashed everyone and was the most mediocre of the bunch. Avery was goaded into bashing Clampett in that letter but later repented.

It makes no sense to me. They all made cartoons far superior to anything today. Cartoonists just don't stick together for some reason.

[Solium]

I remember the war of words was at its height during the 80's. Mr. Bluth, Bakshi, Glen Keane all had choice words for one another. This was a time when all three were trying to break out of the mold and they all had a distinct idea of style and substance.

The problem I think is that artists by nature have a great urge to express themselves through their art. Yet there were only a few animation companies with distinct animation styles. Both in story and art. There just wasn't any room for free expression so they lashed out at one another.

Well as noted this isn't exactly new. Several animator left Disney in the early years 40's (?) to start their own company's.

Mr. Bluth said something when NIMH came out that really stuck with me all these years. For every (2D) animated film that fails, the whole (2D) animation market dies a little more.

3D animation films seem to come out on a monthly basis if not weekly basis, the market is saturated and can stand to let a few 3D films to fail.

But when a 2D animation film fails, everyone points their fingers at that failure and blame the animator and its style for the reason for its failure.

We need more 2D animation and more 2D animation styles so the general public and accept the medium across the board.

[Don Bluth]

I remember the war of words was at its height during the 80's. Mr. Bluth, Bakshi, Glen Keane all had choice words for one another. This was a time when all three were trying to break out of the mold and they all had a distinct idea of style and substance.

The problem I think is that artists by nature have a great urge to express themselves through their art. Yet there were only a few animation companies with distinct animation styles. Both in story and art. There just wasn't any room for free expression so they lashed out at one another.

Well as noted this isn't exactly new. Several animator left Disney in the early years 40's (?) to start their own company's.

Mr. Bluth said something when NIMH came out that really stuck with me all these years. For every (2D) animated film that fails, the whole (2D) animation market dies a little more.

3D animation films seem to come out on a monthly basis if not weekly basis, the market is saturated and can stand to let a few 3D films to fail.

But when a 2D animation film fails, everyone points their fingers at that failure and blame the animator and its style for the reason for its failure.

We need more 2D animation and more 2D animation styles so the general public and accept the medium across the board.

Solium
I appreciate your assessment of the choice words that you mentioned that were going on between Bakshi, Glen Keane and myself, however, Bakshi never worked for Disney and Glen Keane never left! From my point of view, in those days, we were merely trying to keep the art form alive since we witnessed so many of the beautiful traditions of the Golden Age of Animation were being thrown out because of budget constraints. The only way to do that was to exit the studio and start again free of the studio politics. I'm sure there was some ego involved with the three people you mentioned but now that traditional animation has almost completely disappeared in the United States, I can't help wonder if we could have changed the situation by working a little harder. If there is any difference between the stories we've attempted to tell in the twelve films we've produced compared to the films produced at Disney Studio, it would be in the tone of the stories. That is, we attempted to tell stories about real life and not formula stories to please the stock holders.

[samuelvictorjones]

...now that traditional animation has almost completely disappeared in the United States, I can't help wonder if we could have changed the situation by working a little harder.

Thats a heartbreaking statement. What you were brave enough to do kept the artform alive at least fifteen years longer than it would have done, and forced Disney to up the quality of their work considerably. The fact that other people weren't as brave as you and didn't start their own companies is hardly your fault and no-one could accuse you of not working hard having created so many and such a wide range of fully animated films in such a short period. Also what you are doing with this website & training us enthusiasts is an amazing way to give back to the animation industry & help secure it's future.

My own feeling about the current state of the market is there is a combination of 2 elements. The first is that with the first mainstream CG movie (Toy Story) being SO good, and feeling different at the time, meant that many tried to emulate that success, and resources were put into producing CG animation. There have been some fantastic CG films, and some truly awful ones. As has been alluded to, they can be produced quicker and cheaper, and so there is less risk, and the market can be flooded in the hope of an unexpected hit. However we're starting to see a backlash against identikit art styles and cheap fart jokes that plague many of them (not Pixar films, who have retained the quality, I feel).

As Don has said - the real money is in the teen market - and unless it is ironic, sarcastic, and often rude (for example Family Guy, South Park which are great in their own right but not "family" suitable) they won't embrace 2d animation as it feels childish to them. This will pass, for the simple reason that as generations go on, 2d animated Disney films won't be a major part of their childhoods (they simply aren't being made) and therfore with the right reboot will feel fresh and new.

The second is changes in society, namely kids growing up and emulating teens. Nowadays Disney makes the most money from the tween and teen market anyway - with live action movies and tv shows featuring their teen stars - all of whom release pop/rock albums, clothing lines, merchandise etc to capitalise on their popularity. It seemed to start with Hilary Duff/Lizzie McGuire which was an unexpected success for Disney in a financially low period, so its unsurprising they copied the formula with Hannah Montana, High School Musical and the like.

The irony to me is that all the successful Disney live action stars have pop careers, and the shows/films have strong musical elements (even little Lizzie McGuire became a popstar in the film) but one of the major elements that puts the tween/teen market off the traditional Disney style animated films is when the cartoons burst into song, which is seen as "cheesey" by tweens/teens.

As a parent myself (who's also very active in the commuinty and therefore know all their friends fairly well also) kids are feeling the pressure to grow up (or at least act grown up) very quickly. The 8-10 year old girls near me are acting like the 12-15 year old girls of my youth. This change in society will of course affect the market for things they percieve as "childish", or "old fashionned".

It surely can't be long till the novelty of CG animation wears off, and only at least semi decent films will make a profit. New, original ideas, good story telling and likeable characters will always be in fashion. It wouldn't take much of a reboot for a 2d animated feature to become popular and be a runaway hit, encoraging more to be made again, and for the balance of 2d and CG to even out, both co-existing happily.

Its an obvious starting point, but Disney could make a Phineas & Ferb movie successful with little initial outlay. It has a built in fan base and is accepted as cool by the kids - many of whom were won over initially by simply having Ashley Tisdale be a voice and plug it constantly via her Twitter account.

Another way for Disney to have an "easy" animated hit would be to mix cartoon and live action (Roger Rabbit, Pete's Dragon, Song of the South etc) and get their biggest teen stars to do it. Personally I think that out of their current line-up Selena Gomez would be best suited to this, as she has a cooler edgier image than the more squeaky clean stars, but has a love of Disney animation, and is used to working with elements not "there" such as the cg magic effects & characters in WOWP.

The success of either project could encorage Disney to develop more original full length animations. They know that original ideas and breaking from the template can be successful for them - look at Lilo & Stitch :)

I do agree with Don that the future of 2d animated feature is likely to lie with independent film makers to take the risk, and I'm incredibly grateful for what he does with his books, this forum, seminars, workshops etc to train us enthusiasts to keep the artform alive and well.

[Solium]

2D animation didn't die because of a lack of effort. One can argue its never been stronger. We had 20 years of direct to video 2D animated movies by Disney. We have the Original Video Animation Anime flooding our market place. Even today, the market is filled with "American" OVA's based on DC and Marvel Superheros. (Yes, I know they are not animated here)

Thus, there is a market for 2D animation. But yes even this is changing a bit with Disney making the Tinker Bell movies with 3D animation.

However I think the point is, the market exists. Its the ones whom finance these animations that convince themselves that 2D is not profitable.