The Land Before Time movie was censored?

[BlusteryDay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_Before_Time


Editing

Throughout production, The Land Before Time went under a severe cutting and editing of footage. Steven Spielberg and George Lucas thought that some scenes in the movie would appear too frightening or could even cause psychological damage to young children. About 10 minutes of footage, a total of 19 fully animated scenes, were cut from the final film, to attain a G rating instead of a PG rating. Much of the cut footage consisted of the Tyrannosaurus Rex attack sequence and sequences of the five young dinosaurs in severe situations of peril and stress. Some scenes with the characters in the movie screaming had to be revoiced using milder exclamations by voice over artist and singer Lucy Mitchell. It was felt this would be more suitable for young children.[4] Though Don Bluth was unhappy with the cuts, and fought for all the footage, he had to settle on a final running time of 69 minutes, one of his shortest.[4] However, the uncut version has aired at least in Finnish television in the years 1995 and 1998, by mtvmedia. This means that the uncut version still exists somewhere, though Bluth has stated that the original elements were possibly destroyed.

"The sequence of Littlefoot's mother's death was also going to be eliminated; however, it was thought that if the scene were removed it would complicate explaining why Littlefoot had to journey to the Great Valley alone. The scene was shown to psychologists who gave their feedback to the production team. The character of Rooter was added to the story to soften the emotional blow, and teach Littlefoot and the audience that even after loved ones die, they are always with us in the lessons we have learned from them.[4] However, brief portions of the scene which involved the mother's neck and back being bitten have since been edited out of home video releases and television airings, though this footage was present both in the theatrical cut and on earlier VHS copies of the film.

Later editing of the film was presumably done to bring the tone closer to that of the nonviolent and child-friendly sequels and television series that the franchise has become known for."


This is really a shame. Where any other Dun Bluth/Disney/animated films in general edited? The only other example I know of are "they cut off your ear if they don't like your face" in Aladdin.

[samuelvictorjones]

Censorship in films is something I'm particularly interested in, I've collected banned / uncut versions of things for a while. Its particularly fascinating when it relates to kids films and animation even more so.

I've read that cuts were also made to American Tale & All Dogs Go to Heaven - the latter showing more clearly Charlie being hit by the car, and his section in "Hell" being less of a short dream sequence, more a longer reality. I also read that Don actually had an original, uncut version of the film saved in his own safe, but unfortnately this was stolen :(

The Land Before Time sequences are something I would literally kill to see, as its one of my favourite movies and they are by far the longest cut from Don's films as far as I know. Unfortunately I remember reading that the original cells & film etc were destroyed for storage issues. Several people have said that the uncut version was shown in certain european territories, but as far as I know, this is based on the memories of children rather than actual proof of copies still in rotation to reel collectors etc. I've read both Don & Gary Goldman state that the footage is lost. In my loft somewhere I have a VHS recording of the very first UK TV broadcast, I'm pretty sure the extra scenes aren't there, but at some point I'll check when I have a clearout!

I recently read a lot of Roger Ebert reviews (I like his style of writing, but he's very hit & miss as to whether I agree with him!) but found an interesting quote:


Don Bluth already has addressed the obvious objection to his "An American Tail," which is that so depressing a story could hardly entertain children. He believes that kids can handle bad times for a movie's hero, as long as the film ends happily. The lesson is that we can survive setbacks with pluck and courage.

That may be so, but the hero of "An American Tail," a young mouse named Fievel, is made to undergo such hardships in this movie that the children in the audience may despair long before the happy ending.


Personally I entirely agree with Don on this one. As a kid myself of 5-10 when I saw American Tail, Land Before Time & All Dogs, I enjoyed them, and felt that the content respected me and talked to me more like an adult about real life issues, but in a child appropriate manner.

Mind you I also enjoyed Watership Down & The Plague Dogs - the latter of which is incredibly hard to track down in un-censorred form (most censorred dvds don't state that they are, & have the same cover), & in the 80s was withdrawn from most cinemas & never made rental stores or syndication as it was "unsuitable for children"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5mcc47xD8
Warning - the above scene is both VERY violent & heartbraking! As is all of the film really. Really beautiful though and a very powerful message. [editted to add the "very", should anyone misunderstand :)]

[samuelvictorjones]

As an afterthought, of course there are many famous examples of older Disney films being heavily censorred (eg Fantasia) or completely removed from circulation (eg Song of the South) because they contain racial stereotypes that would nowadays be considerred potentially offensive or misleading to child children (especially those who watch their favourite dvds on repeat).

This is a difficult issue for me, as the purist in me feels that these pieces are of the time, & regardless of content are beautiful pieces of art. If the films were for adults & censorred on dvd i would be enraged - for example Breakfast at Tiffany's, or even Birth of a Nation are very relevant to film history students, regardless of how unfortunate they seem today.

However with something primarily made as a kids film (even if it was 50 years ago) the temptation is when its released on dvd or on tv to show it to your kids. I still have a few issues with content in Dumbo, Peter Pan & Pinnochio - but I love these films, and I feel they ARE suitable for my kids, I just gave them a small talk about certain scenes afterwards.

"Song of the South" is a particularly difficult one for the Disney corp. They are always being asked at shareholder's meetings to release it on DVD and always refuse. Te trouble being that soon it will hit "Public Domain" - meaning it will be released anyway by cheap companies in pound/dollar stores if Disney don't re-mastrer, re-release & re-copyright it first (just as many fleisher etc cartoons have been). Do I think the film is offensive? Not really. Remus is a hero character, who treats the white & black kids the same. He is NOT a slave as many people assume, he is a paid worker in the days after the slave trade. But there are too many paralels that could lead a child watching it to assume that the slave trade wasn't a negative thing, and all the slaves were loved and treated as family members. Its a difficult one, as the film itself isn't offensive, but it can be misinterpretted. Personally I love the brer Rabbit sections.

The biggest issue for me are the Sunflower sections of Fantasia's Pastoral Symphony. There is no question in my mind that Disney should simply leave the scenes in, but re-draw & colour the character slightly. They seem unwilling to do this though - and in the two versions of Fantasia I own, they've either zoomed in the scenes to crop her out (which looks ugly, making the lines fat, animation more jerky looking, and scenes boring in composition) orr, even worse, just chopped those bits out, leaving the action no longer in sync with the music! (which, surely, is the whole point of Fantasia) Poor quality uncut scene here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPKpFNm3QMM

Of course there are a great many classic 30s/40s short cartoons (especially those made in WWII) from disney, warner, fleischer etc which are now banned due to excessive violence, racial sterotypes, over sexualisation etc. But you asked about feature films, so thats a whole other story. These early carttons were not often aimed at children - they were for adults before a full feature, and therfore consideration was needed before showing them on tv on a saturday morning ;)

[LaurenWilsonArt]

That explains so much! I was amazed at how short that movie was... and my friend, who owns the VHS was going on about how violent that fight scene was. I saw the DVD and didn't think it was that bad.

Now I really want to find these cut scenes!

[LaurenWilsonArt]

Mind you I also enjoyed Watership Down & The Plague Dogs - the latter of which is incredibly hard to track down in un-censorred form (most censorred dvds don't state that they are, & have the same cover), & in the 80s was withdrawn from most cinemas & never made rental stores or syndication as it was "unsuitable for children"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5mcc47xD8
Warning - the above scene is both violent & heartbraking! As is all of the film really. Really beautiful though and a very powerful message.

Ugh, why did I click that... *shudder* That was extremely upsetting. I couldn't get through that book... too depressing. Tried to rent the movie but chickened out after I heard how horribly violent/depressing it was. Sorry, I love animation but I'm also a wuss.

[samuelvictorjones]

Hi Lauren - Sorry you found it upsetting, I did warn you ;) It is probably the worst of three scenes which were cut from most versions of the film, I included it as an extreme example of scenes cut from feature film animation from the same time period as TLBT.

Personally I love the Plague Dogs film, but feel without the human death scenes it looses a lot - specifically that the dog after having his owner accidentally die feels like he is some curse to humans, who will always die in his presence, and that is why they "punished" him at the vivisection clinic. Its tragic, but the manifestations of each animal's feelings upon escaping paralel's depression, and other forms of mental illness beautifully, and also shows how nasty vivisection can be, so hpoefully re-inforces the idea to only use it when absolutely necessary (ie curing cancer, rather than testing nail polish allergies!) But yes, it IS depressing. And as a British film, I'm afraid it doesn't have a Hollywood style happy ending :( So not one for the younger kids I'd say!

[Moneyguns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5mcc47xD8
Warning - the above scene is both violent & heartbraking! As is all of the film really. Really beautiful though and a very powerful message.

HOLY CRAP!:eek:

[samuelvictorjones]

lol u not seen the film either? Maybe its just something we 80s born Brits had to warp our childhoods :P As I said though its a great film and beautifully animated. You can watch the whole thing on youtube if you search for "Plague Dogs uncut". Just don't expect a happy ending, but a poigniant one. Unless your heart is made of stone, you will cry, oh yes.

As an interesting side point - due to differences in censorship, the film was a PG-13 on release in america, but automatically passed as U in the UK, cartoons were assumed for kids, and violence & threat only counted if "realistic". Clearly not a sensible judgement. Personally I'd have been more confortable with a 12 rating, but that didn't exist at the time so would have to have been PG or 15, neither of which would have been quite right...

Useless fact number 2: Patrick Stewart is in the film as the voice of an army major :P

[jeremyhopkins]

That explains so much! I was amazed at how short that movie was... and my friend, who owns the VHS was going on about how violent that fight scene was. I saw the DVD and didn't think it was that bad.

The VHS version isn't that violent. It shows sharptooth jumping on Little Foot's mother and taking a bite out of her in black silhouette. Having grown up with the VHS, I can't say that it left me emotionally scarred.

[Phrogger]

Samuel, you know a lot about the issue of censorship in childrens' films, it would make a great book.

Let me speak as a parent for a moment. I support the director's wishes in most cases, as long as ratings are clearly labeled for content. Unfortunately the film ratings system is terribly broken- I think the one for video games is much more accurate. I can feel comfortable with my 4-year old playing an "E" rated video game but I can't have the same assurance about a "G" rated movie.

Let me stress that a lot depends on the child in question as well as the age of the child. In my opinion most American animated films skew towards an older audience than people think (at least 7 and up) due to the violence. But of course many people take their younger children to see those films- I wonder if it's actually appropriate or if they just assume it is because it's "G" rated.

I happen to have a very special kid who gets very upset to the point of tears watching any kind of peril at all. We literally don't watch movies anymore- even the pretty tame ones like Winnie the Pooh. Of course my friend's 5-year-old watches Doctor Who (the new one which I occasionally find terrifying) and loves it. so either he's going to be scarred for life or he just handles things differently, I don't know.

So anyway, I think it's the parent's responsibility to screen for content according to their child's age and personality, since there isn't really a decent ratings system in place. But clear labeling for content and better ratings sure would help us parents out.

I sure would love to see Song of the South though. I need to borrow my neighbor's bootleg copy when I get the chance.

[samuelvictorjones]

The VHS version isn't that violent. It shows sharptooth jumping on Little Foot's mother and taking a bite out of her in black silhouette. Having grown up with the VHS, I can't say that it left me emotionally scarred.

Yes, thats the version I remember seeing. I have read all over the place that around 10 minutes of footage that was animated was recomended by Steven to be removed, and never made it to any release. However some people then say it DID get released but only in parts of Europe. I'm not sure. I'm sure Don would know, but its probably a sore point - I wouldn't want to spend all the time meticulously planning story boards and tests for months then spend weeks animating a sequence only to have it shortenned or completely removed :(

Samuel, you know a lot about the issue of censorship in childrens' films, it would make a great book.

Thank you Meredith - its certainly something I couldwrite with all the data I have srtored up - however I don't know anything that isn't freely available on the internet already. My interest started because I started studying the 1930s & 40s shorts from all the big housess after hearing Rolf Harris talk passionately about the differences in styles between different animators & directors, and I noticed that many of the cartoons named as particularly special "classics" by anaimtion historians were banned from circulation & not easily available to watch. This peaked my interest.

The most prolific example is "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves" which has won so many awards over the years for its animation and is always in the top ten voted shorts by experts & animators alike. But the racial sterotyping is so strong you couldn't possibly air it on daytime tv. I only mention this particular cartoon as you mentionned "Song of the South" bootlegs - I often see Coal Black put on them as an "extra feature" - no idea why, completely different animation house, and completely unrelated content & age suitability. Interesting how Disney seem to do very little to stop the bootlegs - I regularly see "remasterred" Song of the South DVDs on Amazon, ebay, all kinds of websites, even seen it in a few retail shops til I pointed out they weren't sposed to be there ;) I'm sure if the same thing were happenning with their other classics such as Snow White or Pinnochio Disney would be clamping down very hard.

As a parent myself I completely agree with your statement. Ever child is entirely different and what is suitable for one is not guaranteed suitable for another, and the ratings system is very flawed as we've both aknowledged. My wife & I usually watch DVDs ourselves before letting the kids watch them. Of course in the cinema you take more of a risk, but you're sat right there with them to take them out if they get upset or hold their hand if they get scared. I think you're very wise to know your own children so well & not just see dvd players or tvs as glorified baby sitters :)

Glad to hear the British tradition of scaring people with Dr Who still exists, even over the pond! ;) If you get the latest ones - isn't Amy Pond awesome? Love that character!

[Solium]

Hi, I am new here so I hope no one minds me jumping in on this discussion.

I hardly doubt the UK or any other country saw an "unedited" version of Land Before Time. It is my understanding the scenes were cut at the work print stage. (and not saved in any form)

There are some oddities about this film. There is a shot of Littlefoot standing on the cliff of a water fall that is not in the film, but appears in a childrens picture book. It appears to be a "snap shot" from the film and not a picture book illustration. It is hardly a scene of peril so I have no idea why it was cut.

Also some (very brief) scenes of Littlefoot and Cera in peril were included in some US commercials that are not in the final print. If someone could "find" those commercial prints one would see a few of those censored frames of film.

On a similar note , All Dogs Go To Heaven was censored after the film was shown in theaters. A scene where Charlie says, "Damn that Scarface" was omitted from both the official soundtrack and the VHS/DVD release. (Charlie instead says, "That Scarface". Damn is simply muted out. The line was not re-recorded. Odd, since Justine says "Damn" in Secret Of NIMH and that has never been censored from its many releases on video and DVD.

[samuelvictorjones]

Solium - not at all! - welcome :)

I tend to agree with you that the likelyhood of other countries getting the uncut version is slim to none, thats why I said it was based on the memories of a child 20 years ago & not based on any evidence.

I read Gary Goldman on his "ask gary" section talking about the scenes in the adverts as someone rememberred them and sent him a question, pretty sure Pizza Hut was mentionned. That would have been in teh States tho so I'd have never seen them.

As for books baed on the film, these were probably written and sent into manufacture way before the original print of the film had been finished, to allow simultaneous release of merchandise with the film. The pictures probably were film cells as you suggested, but from scenes removed in the development process. This is common and not "censorship" as such, many scenes would have been animated to some degree for internal tests, perhaps even completed for test videwings by the public to iron out clarity, timing issues etc. From my experience, public test screenings can often make you re-evaluate entiure sections of film. Must be more frustrating in anaimation - but of course its important to get the film as good as possible before full release.

It occurred to me that whilst we're talking about cuts to Don's work, Pete's dragon is an obvious example. According to Wikipedia there have been many versions, between 94m and 134m - a huge 40 minute difference! The longest release on home video formats being 129m with just 5minutes remaining. Of course, the film was live action with only the dragon character animated, so many of thes cuts would presumably not have been of Don's anaimtion, although i'm sure some would have been :(

[Solium]

@ samuelvictorjones. Thanks for the welcome. :-)

You could very well be correct that the childrens book picture I am speaking of was a cel set up. There are a few such publicity shots for NIMH. Such as the whole Brisby family taking a afternoon flight on Jeremy's back.

Pete's Dragon appeared to be plagued with production problems. And I remember Mr. Bluth saying it was very difficult to get the young animators at the time to work as a team. (Everyone wanted to do their own thing.)

Funny story. There was a live action effects shot where Elliote's feet were supposed to leave footprints in wet cement. The crew thought they would save time and lay the cement the night before the shoot. Of course by morning the cement had hardened and they had to redo the effects shot.

[samuelvictorjones]

Haha great story! As someone who's worked on a lot of live action films this sounds like the kind of miscommunication which happens all the time, and the type of unpredictable incident that means every production I've worked on has gone over schedule or had pick-up shots added later ;)

[Solium]

I was going to scan some art so I could show some shots I was confused about. But instead, did a fast internet search and found the exact scenes or cell set ups I was thinking of.

Specifically if you follow this link you will find some shots of Little foot standing on the edge of a waterfall. What do you think? Publicity cell set ups or cut scene from the film?

Click Here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/thegangoffive/index.php?showtopic=1443&view=getnewpost)

[samuelvictorjones]

I've seen the black & white amblin publicity card before, its nice to see it in colour. I'd say that scene was animated to some degree for an early cut of the film, before changes were made (probably after Steven, or a test audience, watching a partially animated animatic) to change the pacing of the end. It doesn't make a lot of sense in my mind for Littlefoot to find the great valley and have time to frolic by himself before the otehr catch up. With the spirit he shows in the film, I'd say as soon as he discoverred it he would make sure the others were there to share it with him, as is in the final film. That website suggests this change was due to moving when they fight with sharptooth - that may explain why originally littlefoot was a lone for longer. Its a common early publicity shot, its 100% certain that was sent to be reproduced and passed around significantly earlier than completion of the film.

Although the setup of the waterfall is beautiful to look at and would have been great to see this animated, I think plotwise this cut makes sense, and, importantly would probably not count as censoring or cutting, rather changing things at the development stage. To me, something that is censored is something the director wanted in the final cut that was removed afterwards by censors, studio execs etc.

[Solium]

I should clarify, I didn't mean to say that "missing" scene on the waterfall was censored. Only that it was "missing" from the final cut.

I totally forgot the ending was changed so that they disposed of Sharp Tooth before finding the Great Valley. That makes a lot of sense why this scene was "cut" or not finished.

Kinda wonder if they should have kept the original treatment. Having Sharp Tooth stand between them and the Great Valley. I think it would have made a more dramatic ending.

But that said, the discovery of the Great Valley was spectacular and awe inspiring the way it played out in the film.

[zanekohler]

I am getting caught up on this post. So I just saw the The Plague Dogs clip. I have heard of it but never saw any animation before today. I am intrigued to see it now. Not for the violence so much as the fact it has flown below my radar for so long.

If your into rare animation a great dvd is the Walt Disney Treasures - On the Front Lines . That one has a lot of good war time animation. It was very cool to see Disney ok the release of this one as it touches on some racial stereo typing. With that said it gives you a good insight to how people felt at the time while creating propaganda films.

[samuelvictorjones]

I really like a lot of the Wartime cartoons, especially the Donald Duck ones. "Spirit of '43" is particularly sinister in moments - its now in the public domain, and I've used audio samples from it in music before to fun effect. Its also the first appearance of Scrooge McDuck as a Scottish stereotype of not wasting money. The one where Donald himself is a Nazi is particularly well done, if shocking to people today. The worst visual sterotypes were probably those of the Japanese. Non-Disney-wise the Bugs Bunny equivalents were far more extreme.

I'd strongly recomend both Plague Dogs and Watership Down, as long as you don't mind serious subject matter and like a more realistic animation style of animals. The artwork & storytelling of both is (in my opinion) sublime. Also nice to have British animated films. I also liked the television series of Animals of Farthing Wood which had a similar art style.

[Solium]

The Disney war time shorts are fascinating for sure, along with the Bugs Bunny war time films.

I just can't get myself to watch Plague Dogs. I haven't even clicked on the link. That's just a little bit to much reality for me. After all, films regardless if they are animated or live action should "entertain".

NIMH touched on animal cruelty but it was not the total focal point of the film. If fact I still cringe when those scientists plunge those needles into the rats. I'm not saying Plague Dogs dosent have any artistic value, its just not for me.

[zanekohler]

I have the Plague Dogs on order :). I do own Watership down. I saw that one as a youngin' and always enjoyed it.

One of the Disney war time films that I think is very powerful is "Education for Death"
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQqCeEG5hs0)

[samuelvictorjones]

Yes I like that one. In retrospect both shocking & hilarious. "The beautiful princess is...... GERMANY!" always amused me. Of course its fairly blatantly distorted propaganda - but with its basis in truth (as opposed to most of the Nazi propaganda) & very effective. What I particularly liked about that cartoon was the use of light & shadow.

To me the ones that use characters I remember from my childhood & associate them with such different times and ideals are the ones that are shocking to my eyes. I think "Der Furher's Face" was the name of the one was a Nazi Donald if I remember correctly? Catchy song, think it won awards at the time.

[Solium]

I will add Watership down as a favorite of mine. What it lacked in animation it made up for in story, music and voice talent. Sadistic bunnies don't bother me as much as Plague Dogs!

[danparkerstudios]

Oh yeah, I loved the Land Before Time when I was a kid. It was such a great movie. Although a little sad, but it's still great. I liked the end credits song as well.

But, I also enjoyed most of the sequels to this movie as well. That's because I loved the Land Before Time.

Well, for the first one being censored, I must say it wasn't perfectly censored. There were some voilent scenes left. But yeah, I must agree some scenes were removed like All Dogs Go To Heaven. But they're both still good movies.

[samuelvictorjones]

I will add Watership down as a favorite of mine. What it lacked in animation it made up for in story, music and voice talent. Sadistic bunnies don't bother me as much as Plague Dogs!

:laughing: Yes the bunnies are quite viscious. Its a beautiful film though, I'm very fond of it. I don't wish to harp on about Plague Dogs but it just occurred to me, another insteresting thing to mention about the film, is that Brad Bird was one of the animators. Only noticed that one recently!

But, I also enjoyed most of the sequels to this movie as well. That's because I loved the Land Before Time.

In some ways, the sequels often suck, they are overly twee with little emotional depth. The animation is either poor, or in latter cases computer based. But I'm inclined to agree that overall I love "The Land Before Time" as a franchise, simply as the characters themselves are so fantastic I am left wanting to see more of what happenned to them. They don't even close to live up to the original, but if you don't expect them to, they are pleasant enough kids films about loveable dinosaurs. Mind you, I even played through all the Palystation Land Before Time games, which were terrible, often infuriatingly so, just because I enjoyed controlling the characters & pretending to be them. Now that is enduring character design. :laughing:

[kepardi]

I tend to agree with you that the likelyhood of other countries getting the uncut version is slim to none, thats why I said it was based on the memories of a child 20 years ago & not based on any evidence.


it was definitely aired - I wouldn't otherwise remember the dialogues of the outcut scenes exactly 1:1 as they are in the books and how they looked like. not to mention the small snippets from those scenes that are still available on the net.

[judithbarsi4ever]

Some scenes are horrible. I dont know because makes these hard scenes if they know scenes will be censured.

[Ben Sword]

That’s to bad, I didn’t know anything was cut from Land Before Time.


"Song of the South" is a particularly difficult one for the Disney corp. They are always being asked at shareholder's meetings to release it on DVD and always refuse. Te trouble being that soon it will hit "Public Domain" - meaning it will be released anyway by cheap companies in pound/dollar stores if Disney don't re-mastrer, re-release & re-copyright it first (just as many fleisher etc cartoons have been). Do I think the film is offensive? Not really. Remus is a hero character, who treats the white & black kids the same. He is NOT a slave as many people assume, he is a paid worker in the days after the slave trade. But there are too many paralels that could lead a child watching it to assume that the slave trade wasn't a negative thing, and all the slaves were loved and treated as family members. Its a difficult one, as the film itself isn't offensive, but it can be misinterpretted. Personally I love the brer Rabbit sections.

I still don’t know why they refuse to release this after releasing all the Mickey cartoons with all the Black Face jokes intact. It doesn’t seem very hard to put a “Warning some people may find this offensive because…Bla Bla Bla. You should have a talk with your children before letting them view it.” From what I have seen there is no problem except that some people think it promotes the ideal “Master and Slave relationship.”
It would be a shame to let it fall into public domain. Gulliver’s Travels is one of my favorite animated films and it’s very hard to find a decent copy of it since it fell into public domain. I have 2 DVD’s and one Blue Ray copy of it. The DVD’s are bad quality and have missing scenes and the Blue Ray just looks messed up. The best copy I can find is one that someone uploaded to YouTube. The next best being the worn out VHS copy in my grandparent’s collection.



The biggest issue for me are the Sunflower sections of Fantasia's Pastoral Symphony. There is no question in my mind that Disney should simply leave the scenes in, but re-draw & colour the character slightly. They seem unwilling to do this though - and in the two versions of Fantasia I own, they've either zoomed in the scenes to crop her out (which looks ugly, making the lines fat, animation more jerky looking, and scenes boring in composition) orr, even worse, just chopped those bits out, leaving the action no longer in sync with the music! (which, surely, is the whole point of Fantasia) Poor quality uncut scene here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPKpFNm3QMM

Personally I think they should just have an uncut edition released, that way collectors like me could have an original unaltered copy. They could even put the option to view the scenes intact or cut on the DVD menu. If they are worried that people might accidently pick it up for their kids then they could just put it up for special order online or something.

Thank you Meredith - its certainly something I couldwrite with all the data I have srtored up - however I don't know anything that isn't freely available on the internet already. My interest started because I started studying the 1930s & 40s shorts from all the big housess after hearing Rolf Harris talk passionately about the differences in styles between different animators & directors, and I noticed that many of the cartoons named as particularly special "classics" by anaimtion historians were banned from circulation & not easily available to watch. This peaked my interest.

The most prolific example is "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves" which has won so many awards over the years for its animation and is always in the top ten voted shorts by experts & animators alike. But the racial sterotyping is so strong you couldn't possibly air it on daytime tv. I only mention this particular cartoon as you mentionned "Song of the South" bootlegs - I often see Coal Black put on them as an "extra feature" - no idea why, completely different animation house, and completely unrelated content & age suitability. Interesting how Disney seem to do very little to stop the bootlegs - I regularly see "remasterred" Song of the South DVDs on Amazon, ebay, all kinds of websites, even seen it in a few retail shops til I pointed out they weren't sposed to be there ;) I'm sure if the same thing were happenning with their other classics such as Snow White or Pinnochio Disney would be clamping down very hard.

I remember reading something online that mentioned both Song Of The South and Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves. It may be that these films are often brought up in the subject of African American Stereotypes and I’m guessing that would be the association. Otherwise I have no idea why they would both appear together.

I really like a lot of the Wartime cartoons, especially the Donald Duck ones. "Spirit of '43" is particularly sinister in moments - its now in the public domain, and I've used audio samples from it in music before to fun effect. Its also the first appearance of Scrooge McDuck as a Scottish stereotype of not wasting money. The one where Donald himself is a Nazi is particularly well done, if shocking to people today. The worst visual sterotypes were probably those of the Japanese. Non-Disney-wise the Bugs Bunny equivalents were far more extreme.
I don’t know why but Spirit of ’43 was not included on the Donald Duck sets when they were released. :(


I'd strongly recomend both Plague Dogs and Watership Down, as long as you don't mind serious subject matter and like a more realistic animation style of animals. The artwork & storytelling of both is (in my opinion) sublime. Also nice to have British animated films. I also liked the television series of Animals of Farthing Wood which had a similar art style.

Animals of Farthing Wood is probably more tame then WD and PD for those of you that are bothered by those films. Though the copy I had seen may have been censored. I do remember some of the animals dying but nothing on screen.

In some ways, the sequels often suck, they are overly twee with little emotional depth. The animation is either poor, or in latter cases computer based. But I'm inclined to agree that overall I love "The Land Before Time" as a franchise, simply as the characters themselves are so fantastic I am left wanting to see more of what happenned to them. They don't even close to live up to the original, but if you don't expect them to, they are pleasant enough kids films about loveable dinosaurs. Mind you, I even played through all the Palystation Land Before Time games, which were terrible, often infuriatingly so, just because I enjoyed controlling the characters & pretending to be them. Now that is enduring character design. :laughing:

I liked the other Land Before Time movies when I was younger but I think I stopped watching them after the sixth or seventh was released. They got a lot worse after that. I remember seeing bits and pieces of the others because my brother still watched them. I remember Littlefoot would randomly start lisping in one of the unnumbered videos.

[samuelvictorjones]

not to mention the small snippets from those scenes that are still available on the net.
Where? Find me a video clip of animation broadcast but cut from the vhs/dvd releases and I'll be very surprised. BUT eternally grateful!

I still don’t know why they refuse to release this after releasing all the Mickey cartoons with all the Black Face jokes intact.
On historical/collector's compilations. A feature film is likely to be bought for kids and regularly watched on repeat. As Don says, people see a Disney dvd as a virtual babysitter.

It doesn’t seem very hard to put a “Warning some people may find this offensive because…Bla Bla Bla.
Exactly. Its likely before it hits the public domain that this is what they'll do. Seems the most sensible option.

From what I have seen there is no problem except that some people think it promotes the ideal “Master and Slave relationship.”
He's not even a slave, he's a legitimate worker, in a time period after the slave trade was abolished. But the sight of a "Hollywood stereotypical" black person working on a plantation with a happy relationship with the white family that employ him is apparently might make people assume he's a slave, and that's where the issue comes from. Or that's the most sensible arguement I've heard. Personally as a kid in the UK, where is was regularly shown on TV and was readily available on VHS, both my wife and I watched it repeatedly and enjoyed it as kids and have absolutely no racist tendencies whatsoever. evidently didn't "warp our fragile little minds" as Cartman would say.

t would be a shame to let it fall into public domain. Gulliver’s Travels is one of my favorite animated films and it’s very hard to find a decent copy of it since it fell into public domain. I have 2 DVD’s and one Blue Ray copy of it. Thank you! I had a rant on here recently about just how terrible the Blu-Ray version of that film is. The best copy I found is the 60year anniversary DVD. The Blu-ray is a badly cropped and stretched version of that dvd, poorly upscaled with a hideous colour filter added.

Personally I think they should just have an uncut edition released, that way collectors like me could have an original unaltered copy. They could even put the option to view the scenes intact or cut on the DVD menu. If they are worried that people might accidently pick it up for their kids then they could just put it up for special order online or something.
YES. As a collector I'd pay good money for that. There's no reason Disney couldn't have done that for the recent Blu-ray release. I was annoyed they didn't tbh.

I remember reading something online that mentioned both Song Of The South and Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves. It may be that these films are often brought up in the subject of African American Stereotypes and I’m guessing that would be the association. Otherwise I have no idea why they would both appear together.
They always appear together on the bootleg dvds. As you point out, the only connection is that they both contain sterotypes that could now be perceived as racially insensitive. They aren't even from the same company or animators.

The rational side of me would like to believe that the reason Coal Black is often included by people making these bootlegs is that they realise that both films were actually considered progressive and respecting of Black culture at the time, and both are very well animated and considered classics, so will be of interest to collectors and historians. However, the cynic in me notes that some bootlegs also include ComiColor "Little Black Sambo", which, much as I admire Iwerks, is hardly a classic, so may just be a case of "People who buy this film on dvd like good old fashioned family racism, they'll eat this s**t up!". Unfortunately, this may be the motivation behind such bootlegs, so I'd suggest downloading the film rather than buying an illegal copy, if you need it on dvd until Disney actually release it ;)

I don’t know why but Spirit of ’43 was not included on the Donald Duck sets when they were released There is comparitively little of Donald in it, and its barely funny. If I were compiling such a thing and runtime were limited, its the one I'd cut. Its historically interesting though and personally I like the first appearance of "Uncle Scrooge", who, as a child of the 80s & 90s, of course I loved. Chances are he himself is considerred a racial sterotype too, but apparantly people are less offended by Scottish parodies!

Animals of Farthing Wood is probably more tame then WD and PD for those of you that are bothered by those films. Though the copy I had seen may have been censored. I do remember some of the animals dying but nothing on screen.
Yes you're exactly right. It was a children's tv show shown on the BBC. It contained deaths and slightly adult subject matter, like religion, relationships etc, but nothing shown on screen, unlike the gory WD/PD. I've not seen it since I was a child but I loved it back then. The animation was quite nice from what I remember.

[Solium]

Regarding LBT, I don't think its possible to see a directors cut. The cut scenes never made it to the work print. (If I am using the correct terminology) In fact I believe Don said, those scenes did not even go to color. If anything the pencil drawings "may" exist somewhere in the Universal vaults.

Likewise with "ALL Dogs Go To Heaven". While the cut scenes were completely animated and colored, Don said the original work print was lost or stolen. There could never be an extended cut of "Dogs" either.

Not unless theres a work print hiding in Argentina somewhere. :laughing:

[Ben Sword]

Thank you! I had a rant on here recently about just how terrible the Blu-Ray version of that film is. The best copy I found is the 60year anniversary DVD. The Blu-ray is a badly cropped and stretched version of that dvd, poorly upscaled with a hideous colour filter added.
Is this copy available for order online? I’m still looking for a decent copy to put in my DVD collection.



The rational side of me would like to believe that the reason Coal Black is often included by people making these bootlegs is that they realise that both films were actually considered progressive and respecting of Black culture at the time, and both are very well animated and considered classics, so will be of interest to collectors and historians. However, the cynic in me notes that some bootlegs also include ComiColor "Little Black Sambo", which, much as I admire Iwerks, is hardly a classic, so may just be a case of "People who buy this film on dvd like good old fashioned family racism, they'll eat this s**t up!". Unfortunately, this may be the motivation behind such bootlegs, so I'd suggest downloading the film rather than buying an illegal copy, if you need it on dvd until Disney actually release it ;)
I have seen Song Of The South and I’m in no hurry to get a copy, it’s widely known so it’s not like it’s going to disappear forever if I don’t. I’m still waiting for an official release. :)


There is comparitively little of Donald in it, and its barely funny. If I were compiling such a thing and runtime were limited, its the one I'd cut. Its historically interesting though and personally I like the first appearance of "Uncle Scrooge", who, as a child of the 80s & 90s, of course I loved. Chances are he himself is considerred a racial sterotype too, but apparantly people are less offended by Scottish parodies!
I’ve seen it several times I was just hoping to get a high quality copy of it. And yah I love Uncle Scrooge too. :)

[samuelvictorjones]

Is this copy available for order online? I’m still looking for a decent copy to put in my DVD collection.

http://www.amazon.com/Gullivers-Travels-Restored-Anniversary-Limited/dp/B00000JS6T

That's by far the best one I've seen. The audio and picture are clean, the original title cards and all scenes are intact, major scratches etc are not present on the print, or have been well cleaned. Its not perfect, but for an amateur/enthusiast copy its the best I've seen.

[Solium]

Wow thanks Sam! I didn't know this was restored. I had an old VHS copy that was absolutely horrible. Sometimes the screen would almost turn "black".
Love this little film.

Anyone remember "Mr. Bug Goes To Town"? That was one of my all time favorite non Disney animated films.

[Ben Sword]

Thanks Samuel, I appreciate your help.

And yes Solium I have a copy of Mr. Bug Goes To Town. It’s a good film with great animation.

[kepardi]

Where?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpxdDQkwV8Q#t=4m3s - a sharptooth scene snippet at 4:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLW_uymCcJs - see 0:44 and 0:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkxN7ylrYI - at 0:12 littlefoot saying "now we'll always be together".

that's all video footage i've come across, just some seconds from trailers. shame the recording of mine died, no one else seems to have put either of those airings on tape.

[Solium]

@ kepardi: Wow! Thats the commercial I remember! I had it recorded on VHS at one time but since lost it. I knew I wasn't dreaming when I thought I saw cut scenes in a commercial way back in 86.

[samuelvictorjones]

@kepardi Fantastic, thanks for that, great to see :) However, trailers do not necessarily reflect the feature version that was shown anywhere, they are invariably made when the film is not complete. However, wonderful to see some rare animation from one of my favourite films, so many thanks :)

@Solium & Ben - no worries. Yes its a great little film, and historically interesting to me as only the second feature animation after fo course, Snow White. A lot of animation historians rag on Travels for its rotoscoping (I've even heard Don dismiss rotoscoping in general by saying "Gulliver's Travels was rotoscoped and no-body went to see that" or something similar) however I've always felt such judgement was slightly unfair, especially when comparing to Snow White, which famously did (though reluctantly) rotoscope both Snow White & the Prince characters to save time in production. Of course, the animation is not up to scratch with Snow White or Pinnochio, but that doesn't mean Gulivers wasn't an enormous achievement at the time.

Yes I remember "Mr. Bug Goes To Town", but I've not seen it recently. As a kid I remember finding it old fashioned (in an interesting way) stylistically when I saw it on TV and wondering where it came from. It was only years later I learned it was the second Fleisher movie. I've not yet found a "good" dvd print of that film, unfortunately.

[0451]

Hello, interesting discussion you have here. Movie censorship is one of the things I'm interested in so I thought I'd share what I know about this one.

As mentioned here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_Before_Time#Editing) in Wikipedia, "However, the uncut version has aired at least in Finnish television in the years 1995 and 1998, by mtvmedia."

Well, I live in Finland and I recently found a VHS tape that had The Land Before Time in it and it was recorded in 1995. But sadly, it wasn't uncut, it was the exact same movie that I have an official VHS release of. So that means that the story is quite probably not true.

...BUT, it is indeed strange because I vaguely remember seeing some scenes that weren't in the other versions of the film. And that rumour has to have come from somewhere. Another strange thing is that I remember seeing the movie in English with Finnish subtitles when I was a kid. But the VHS recording is the Finnish dub. So my little theory is that they aired two versions of the film, one being the regular release we all know with Finnish dubbing, and the other being the uncut version in English with Finnish subtitles - since it's the practice here that movies that are thought to be for kids under 11 are dubbed, but anything with a higher rating is only subbed. So maybe they thought that the original was too violent and didn't dub it. Or I don't know. That'd seem strange too.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on this. I'd really love to find the uncut version of it. The film is already a masterpiece but it could be even better. Maybe we'll get an uncut release someday in the future, just like with Plague Dogs. If Universal still owns the rights for LBT, they probably don't want to release the original uncut version because of the kid-friendly image they've been making with the sequels and the TV series. But since the series is now officially dead (finally! In my opinion, it should've ended with the first movie), maybe they will make the release in the future or when they copyrights expire maybe Bluth himself will release the uncut version, if he still has it. Or maybe the uncut version doesn't even exist anymore. That'd be such a shame. One can only hope.

[Solium]

We should remember there are reportedly two sets of "cuts". If I am correct, Don said cuts were made in the pencil animation stage. So those scenes were never colored or filmed. The second set of cuts was after the master print (or what ever its called) was sent to Spielberg.

Its been confirmed that some "finished" shots were cut from the final version of the film Don delivered to Spielberg. This we know because a few seconds of cut film can be seen in trailers and commercials for the film. However the bulk of the cut footage may have been from the pencil test phase.

[kepardi]

Hello, interesting discussion you have here. Movie censorship is one of the things I'm interested in so I thought I'd share what I know about this one.

As mentioned here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_Before_Time#Editing) in Wikipedia, "However, the uncut version has aired at least in Finnish television in the years 1995 and 1998, by mtvmedia."

Well, I live in Finland and I recently found a VHS tape that had The Land Before Time in it and it was recorded in 1995. But sadly, it wasn't uncut, it was the exact same movie that I have an official VHS release of. So that means that the story is quite probably not true.

...BUT, it is indeed strange because I vaguely remember seeing some scenes that weren't in the other versions of the film. And that rumour has to have come from somewhere. Another strange thing is that I remember seeing the movie in English with Finnish subtitles when I was a kid. But the VHS recording is the Finnish dub. So my little theory is that they aired two versions of the film, one being the regular release we all know with Finnish dubbing, and the other being the uncut version in English with Finnish subtitles - since it's the practice here that movies that are thought to be for kids under 11 are dubbed, but anything with a higher rating is only subbed. So maybe they thought that the original was too violent and didn't dub it. Or I don't know. That'd seem strange too.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on this. I'd really love to find the uncut version of it. The film is already a masterpiece but it could be even better. Maybe we'll get an uncut release someday in the future, just like with Plague Dogs. If Universal still owns the rights for LBT, they probably don't want to release the original uncut version because of the kid-friendly image they've been making with the sequels and the TV series. But since the series is now officially dead (finally! In my opinion, it should've ended with the first movie), maybe they will make the release in the future or when they copyrights expire maybe Bluth himself will release the uncut version, if he still has it. Or maybe the uncut version doesn't even exist anymore. That'd be such a shame. One can only hope.Interesting. My tape was recorded from the 1998 airing.

[kepardi]

Also, a german channel Super RTL is airing a 75-minute version of the movie every summer, this could very well be the uncut version.

[0451]

Yeah, I also kinda remember seeing some scenes that aren't present in the regular cut. Odd.

If you remember some of the dialog, could you write it here? Was it in English or Finnish dubbed?

[kepardi]

Are you 100% sure it is exactly the same as regular cut? Does spike birth scene end before Ducky picks the berries and lures the sleepy spike with them like this?

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd515/Adder2/LBTcutscene1.jpg

Because the 1998 version I saw is definitely not the regular cut. This is the dialog how the scene continues after it cuts in the movie when spike eats the grass:

The rest of the group came running up. "This is my new friend Spike," said Ducky. "Can we take him with us? Huh? Huh?"
"He'll slow us down," Cera said. "All spike-tails can do is eat and burp. Sharptooth will catch up and eat us!"
"No more dumb stories," Littlefoot said sternly.
"I'm telling the truth!" Cera cried.
Over Cera's protests Spike joined the group.

The voices were in finnish. I can remember the shouting in this scene so clearly I'd bet my life on it.

This is the oasis scene, situated before the horde of long necks almost run over them, and again I remember it exactly:

A long time passed and the brave little group was getting more tired and hungry with each plodding step. At least they left the mountains behind. Now they were in a hot, sandy desert.
"I tired," moaned Petrie. "Way to Great Valley too great way."
"We're almost there," cried Littlefoot. "Don't give up now."
Suddenly Spike became alert and sniffed the air.
"He must smell food," said Ducky. "It's the only thing that would wake him up."
Spike snorted and galloped over a small hill. The others followed, staring in wonder at what they saw. There was a small spring of water surrounded by a group of thin gray-noses (Another word for Ducky's sort). Near the spring but standing apart was a cluster of trees full of delicious-looking green-food, surrounded by a group of fat crown-heads. Littlefoot and the others raced down the hill, yelling and cheering. But they got closer, they saw the hard looks on everybody's face, and the cheers died in their throats.
A stern-looking gray-nose came up to them and said, "What do you want, little ones?"
"Food!", Littlefoot cried.
"And water, yep, yep," Ducky added.
A fat crown-head waddled up and said, "No food!"
"You may drink," said the grey-nose to Ducky. "You are a big-mouth like us. But," he continued pointing at the rest of the group, "no water for them."
"But they need drinks, too!" Ducky protested. They're my friends."
"These are your friends?" said the fat crown-head. "A threehorn? A longneck, a spike-tail and" - he pointed to Petrie - "and whatever that is."
"Yes, run away quickly," said the grey-nose to Ducky, "before spikes and horns grow on you."
Cera couldn't believe what she was hearing. She had never realized before how foolish it was to dislike someone just because he looked different. All she knew now was that they all needed food and water. She reared up her head and said firmly, "We're hungry! All of us!"
The thin grey-nose stared at her. "And so are we," he finally said.
"Then why don't you share the water with the crown-heads?" said Littlefoot. "And they could share the food with you. Then you wouldn't be hungry and they wouldn't be thirsty."
"No, no, no," said the crown-head and the grey-nose at the same time.
"Well, if you don't change your minds, all of you will die," said Cera.
"Why don't you like each other anyway?" Ducky asked.
"The crown-heads are from the other side of the swamp," said the gray-nose.
"I don't see anything wrong with that," said Littlefoot.
"This is silly. I'm hungry," cried Cera. "Let's go somewhere else to look for food together." And with that the small group marched away. The grey-nose shook his head. "I'll never understand those young ones," he said. The crown-head nodded and went back to guard the food.

And yet another scene I wondered wasn't there when I watched was when petrie comes back from death. I then managed to find this cel from that scene which proves I remembered it correctly:

http://www.animationsensations.com/img/dinosaur2.jpg

[0451]

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm gonna recheck the tape later today when I get home.

[0451]

Okay, I've checked the tape and it's definitely the regular cut. It was recorded on 25.12.1995 from MTV3. After Ducky finds Spike there is no such scene, they just call her name and suddenly they're walking together. I've compared it to the official VHS and official DVD and it's exactly the same. Too bad.

[kepardi]

Too bad indeed. If the 1998 airing is uncut, then 1995 should've been too. Odd.

[kepardi]

But since you remember scenes not in the regular cut, maybe you have seen the 1998 airing as well?

[0451]

It's possible that I've seen the 1998 airing and it might've been uncut (though it would be strange if it was but 1995 wasn't), but with no tapes there is no way to prove anything. We need to find a recording from 1998 or else we've pretty much hit dead end.

[OwenWelsh]

A lot of time TV will reduce the playing time (cutting out some scenes) of a movie to fit a specific time slot in their programming. Perhaps this is what you guys saw? As far as I know the DVD shows everything that was completed. I think the cut T-Rex shots were lost or maybe they are in some big cardboard box at Universal's warehouse in a mislabeled box titled "cartoon stuff" :(

I think we should petition Steven Spielberg to go find it for us. But unfortunately he's the one who got it cut in the first place.

[kepardi]

A lot of time TV will reduce the playing time (cutting out some scenes) of a movie to fit a specific time slot in their programming. Perhaps this is what you guys saw? As far as I know the DVD shows everything that was completed. I think the cut T-Rex shots were lost or maybe they are in some big cardboard box at Universal's warehouse in a mislabeled box titled "cartoon stuff" :(

I think we should petition Steven Spielberg to go find it for us. But unfortunately he's the one who got it cut in the first place.

I do remember the scenes 100%, how the characters moved, the backgrounds, the dialogue etc. And I did manage to watch the tape quite a few times. The DVD does not show everything that was completed, some of them are still available in motion if you look up for the links in this thread.

Petitioning Spielberg to would probably be the best thing to do now to get the footage back.

[0451]

And since some cut scenes made it into the trailers, it's safe to say most of them were completed and then cut just before the movie was released. So there's a high chance that they still exist, the question is just where.

I don't think either Spielberg or Universal want to release the original cut. Remember, he's the guy who replaced guns in ET with walkie-talkies, and Universal has worked oh-so-hard to make LBT as kiddy friendly as possible.

Not trying to be overly negative here, our best bet really is to find the 1998 tape somewhere. SOMEBODY has to have recorded it.